CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 1 (1/4/01 3:31:41 pm) Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know what information is pulled from a CD to generate a monster??
Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man ... if we knew, we could burn CDs with specific monsters on them ... maybe even with all 999 stats!
>^Luna^ My thoughts exactly. When I have time, I like to burn CDs, and if I happen to make a CD with a super-creature...why...gosh darn, I'll just have to try it.
I might just dig into this...now that I've got my degree, I've got a little more spare time on my hands. And idle hands are the devil's tools....
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 3 (1/5/01 8:37:49 am) Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- toreyluv> I've read the topic of discussion in the board you mentioned. In all honesty, I found it laughable.
Interesting, but laughable.
Fact 1: The sub-q codes are most likely NOT TOUCHED. Why? Instant test: I've tried original and burnt copies of data CDs. They are both identical. Why does this eliminate sub-qs? Well, when I burn CDs, I don't fill out some of the protection info, etc, that would be encoded within the sub-q section.
In other words, my original copy of The Sims for the Mac came out **identically** to my copied version. I did a block-by-block copy. The only differing factor: the sub-q information (which, although some info could be similar, much of it would be different).
Although, I do grant you--the number of sessions and the number of tracks are stored (if I recall correctly) into the sub-q table. (It's within some sub-table).
Fact 2: The original poster neglected some other fine details, such as *actual* burn time. The time shown by readers do vary. The two most important factors were thrown out were frames (1/100th (I think) of a second) and lead-in/lead-out times. 5.5 and 5 aren't always the same value...
(Btw, a program I found to reliably report this is Astarte's CDCopy for the Mac.)
Fact 3: As a programmer (ahem...*Software Engineer*), I would **not** use sub-q. And, let's keep this in mind: I've worked **extensively** on software that actually burns CDs. The best approach is the simpliest approach (a motto of the program I went through).
So how would I design it, and how do I propose Temco also did it? Very simply: Take the total time of the CD, the total time of Track 1 (since every burnt CD *must* have at least one track), possibly the number of sessions, and the number of tracks and mix them all into some splendid equations. Or, more likely, one value determines the *type* of monster, and other information allows each attribute to vary.
For example, let's say that the total track time determines the type of monster. Hells bells, how do we transform 3 numbers (minutes/seconds/frames) into 1 value? And how do we narrow it down to 30-some?
Big Value = Hours * 6000 + Minutes * 100 + Frames. Type of Monster = Big Value (modulous) 30.
Whala. Instant creature type. And it still varies from CD to CD. However, if you do a block-by-block copy of a CD, you'll get the same result, time and time again. Now throw in a few more variables (such as (+ Number of Track * 20) or even (+900)) and you've got a vast mingle of numbers that will eventually get you a creature. Equation still holds. And vastly simplier than pulling out protection information, who burnt the CD, etc. etc. etc.
But what about the stats? I've seen quite a few pulled monsters (online and at home), and none that I've seen are "super-monsters"--that is, 999/999/999/etc, right off the bat. They still seem to "fall within" their monster type, which, to me, means that each monster type starts out with a template, and CD information changes those stats.
I've already got ideas on how to test some of these. I'm quite disappointed that (at least from what I've seen) no one has bothered to explore this in a scientific way. For example, if we want to rule out track numbers, I'm going to try this:
Burn a cd with "silent tracks"--that is, tracks with AIFFs without sound. This is my control CD.
Burn another CD, but increase the size of one of the tracks (including lead-in) so that the track's ACTUAL BURNT TIME is identical to the control. Remove one track. Thus, the number of tracks varies by one, but all other factors remain. (Even the data (which **can** be read, even audio) would be the same)). This is my test CD.
Repeat a few times by increasing tracks and removing more tracks. If the monster's stats or type varies, then we **know** that the number of tracks do determine the type of monster.
Anywho...enough of my ramblings. If anyone's interested here, I'll post my results when I get to them.
--CatsGodot
toreyluv Monster Rancher posts: 20 (1/5/01 6:39:17 pm) i am interested -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and i wont laugh at you either.
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 4 (1/6/01 9:02:08 am) Results So Far -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've burnt about 7 reliable CDs (and 2 mistake CDs, one of which aided in my discoveries). I'll formalize my report, but for now, let me tell you this:
1) CD time does, definately, determine the type of creature you have. This also includes the number of frames (ie 1/75th of a second).
2) The stats, as I've observed, did not change (unless the type of creature changed). However, since my research has only begun, it might be that I have yet to find the modifications for the abilities. (Such as the data stored on Track 1, etc).
3) The number of tracks may not affect the type of creature you get.
As I progress, I'll post a formal report--ie all observed reactions (ie what creature (type/subtype), stats, card #, etc, was produced), personal theories, etc. etc. But for now, I'm actually a little tight for time, and getting the initial tracks correct (especially for the number of tracks test!) took a good hour or two.
BTW, if any of you can master a CD such that it's actual burn time is exact, I can tell you how to get a few monsters (including a Hopper/Bajarl--all but one of my CDs yielded a Hopper of some sort).
--CatsGodotGroupie
Red Hare Monster Rancher posts: 13 (1/6/01 12:09:25 pm) I'm very very very interested!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man, some people buy MR2 just to make scientific research ! Find out how to burn gentle mocchis, blue phoenixies and all of that nasty ??? monsters
Red Hare:It looks stupid, but is actually hiding his wisdom carefully...
Re: I'm very very very interested!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CatsGodot ... wow.
>^Luna^^Luna^<
Red Hare Monster Rancher posts: 16 (1/10/01 6:55:44 am) Re: Anyone Here Own a Burner? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey pal, I can't help you myself but I'll be looking for reinforcements!!! Red Hare: It looks stupid, but is actually hiding his wisdom carefully...
redfox469 Monster Rancher posts: 6 (1/12/01 7:09:14 am) Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- here's an idea. can you burn a cd identical to another cd, as far as track length and total length are concerned, will it get the same monster. par example, get a rare cd, with ??? sub class. try to burn the rare monster. Betcha can't. If this can't be done then perhap we are missing something. The UPC code! Perhaps it reads this, because, the same exact cd from a cd store does not give the same monster as from BMG. think?
P) <--it's a suezo!
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 7 (1/12/01 10:35:24 am) Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RedFox: Actually, that is one test I plan on doing.
From what I've tried, it isn't any UPC or internal codes that actually affect the kind of creature, but minute details (such as the previously overlooked number of frames).
But, rest assured, that will be an eventual test of mine; that will *definately* clear up whether internal codes do have some kind of effect.
But I need to be careful; so far, I've been using silent tracks, and, for all we know, the actual data on a track can affect the creature.
The reason I haven't done that so far: it's a bit more difficult than the other tests I've been running. So long as I have a control, it's not too difficult to slightly modify it. However, I must be ****exact**** in every aspect (except, as suggested, the internal information). That also means that, if I accidentally burn a CD that is a few frames (or even a few seconds) off (which is entirely possible), I have to toss it and try again.
(appendum, a few hours later):
I'm terribly mistaken. It should be incredibly EASY to make a copy of a CD, keeping all things constant (except for sub-table info)...by doing a block-by-block copy. I plan on doing at least one tonight, probably two (Manson's Anti-Christ (I think my own special CD), and another non-special CD).
--Cats
Edited by: CatsGodot at: 1/12/01 1:07:20 pm
Lisa Shock Monster Rancher posts: 2 (1/12/01 8:22:43 pm) Question? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is there any way I can compare frames, or lead-in/out data without a burner? I have 2 CDs, both copies of Christmas With The Chipmunks, one is the regular version, one a music club version. They both read in the PSX and my computer as having the exact same number of Tracks/Min/Sec. One makes Satan Clause (Wracky/???), the other makes a pure Gaboo. They were the only CDs I ever found to be virtually identical but making different monsters.
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 8 (1/13/01 1:19:44 pm) Software to View Internals -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Truthfully, I don't know (or at least on the WinTel side). The software I use for comparing CDs is, actually, not a cd-burning product (but meant to help facilitate burning).
I noticed you had posted the internals of a few CDs in another board; could you do such an analysis of those two CDs and post them? I am very curious, and would like to carefully compare the two.
Btw, I was up until 2am trying to get a copy of Manson's Anti-Christ to copy EXACTLY. I tried a few times. I don't have the proper equipment at home (it refuses to do a true device copy), but I *have* done it at work, so I'll try something there that may work. (Ironically enough, I remembered this morning that it was Mechanical Animals, not ACSS, that gives a special creature). Interesting notw: the original ACSS yields a Suezo/Golem; a CD that was a few seconds off was a Suezo/Jell, and another CD that was a few seconds off was a Suezo/Worm.
eyach. pffft. glah.
--Cats
toreyluv Monster Rancher posts: 24 (1/13/01 6:02:25 pm) again, good work -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this is fascinating.
redfox469 Monster Rancher posts: 7 (1/14/01 8:31:47 am) question... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- in a pack of blank cd's, does all the cd's have the same upc code? look at the readable side, at the inner most circle, along the center hole. try two blank cd's straight out of the package before burning them and see what happens. i wonder if they will both give the same monster.
Red Hare Monster Rancher posts: 20 (1/14/01 8:42:31 am) Mechanic Animals -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I've said before, my friend has MAnimals "and" a GN'R-Ap. for destruction with Skelleton. My Appetite for destruction gives a Citronie(Kato/Suezo).So : 1- Why two presses of the same CD(Same number and duration of tracks)give two different monsters. 2- If Skelleton was supposed to be found only in Marilyn Mason's how can we find it in other CD's
"Red Hare among the horses, Lu Bu among men"
Lisa Shock Monster Rancher posts: 3 (1/14/01 11:18:35 am) 2 CDs and their data, for comparison -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just posted the data from 2 CDs, both copies of Christmas With The Chipmunks, just different pressings. They each read in the PSX itself as having the same numbers of Tracks, Minutes, Seconds. Rather than inflict these rather long documents on this message thread, I posted them at my site. Go to: monster-rancher-metropolis.com in the MR Battle Card Ep.II Archive, go to the Laboratory section, and check out the thread entitled: 2 CDs For Comparison. There you will see some of the similarities/differences in the pressings.
Red Hare Monster Rancher posts: 22 (1/14/01 11:49:38 am) Re: 2 CDs and their data, for comparison -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Lisa.
"Red Hare among the horses, Lu Bu among men"
andy889 Monster Rancher posts: 7 (1/14/01 2:26:51 pm) Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When burning Cds i find i get get different monster or unacessabile ones and these are just basic music ones
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 9 (1/15/01 7:24:43 am) Trying to Get Exact -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, things ain't looking to well for duping my Mechanical Animals CD. To make a long story short, I just tried to dupe them here at work with no success. (Yes, I could use an actual CD copier, but that *would* copy the internals of the CD, which is exactly what we DON'T want).
So I'm going to try my Nirvana CD--I think it may be easier to do by hand. (It's not Mixed Mode, and I *might* be able to duplicate the lead-in times).
Other than that, my weekend was quite busy. Last week I did try 2 CDs and burnt a few (7? I can't remember). This is for the frame differential test--ie how many frames it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop.
Actually, believe it or not, a blank CD is exactly that. Blank. No info, no data, nada. No serial numbers (and there aren't any unless you specify such data while burning), no data.
So what happens if you use a blank (or improperly burnt) CD? The Playstation fails to read it (such as a Audio CD Player and a PC would fail). MR2 states, "Please Insert CD.".
Now, if there are other would could direct me to the sub-channel info where the UPC is stored, I'd be quite happy to retract this statement; however, looking thru my massive ANSI-standard book on SCSI devices (which includes CD-specific tables), I could not see *any* mention of a serial number/UPC. (However, you *can* pull the SN from the burner/reader, but that's WAY off-topic...)
--Cats
PS I'm as pleased as punch--I finally got to 8th rank this morning!!
Lisa Shock Monster Rancher posts: 4 (1/15/01 7:46:04 am)
Re: question... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the update! One of the things we have found is that there are a couple of types of "blank" CDs: truly blank ones act as you described (the system acts like there's nothing in it), but there are also pre-formatted CDs out there that give monsters. I don't own a burner, so I'm not certain about the uses of each of these types, I just know they are out there! Visit https://Monster-Rancher-Metropolis.com!
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 12 (1/15/01 7:53:28 am) Re: Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Popular question: why does a copy of a CD not yield the same monster as the original?
This is what it looks like to me:
After trying to copy ACSS, none of the 5 tries made an *exact* copy. However, they were within a few seconds, sometimes a few frames (1/75th) of a second to the original.
And they *all* yielded a different monster. (Usually same main type, different subtype)
Why this is importantly to your question? Well, if you burn a copy of a CD, odds are you aren't going to get it *exactly* correct. You may be close, but not *exact*. MR2, from what I've seen, picks up on these minute details.
So how can you get an *exact* copy? I admit, I don't know many WinTel burning products, so I can't help you there. However, on the Mac side, there *isn't* any quick-and-easy way to do it. What I'm going to try next is actually analyzing the lead-ins on each track on a CD and try and get my copy to duplicate it *exactly*. Unfortunately, when I tried this with ACSS, I was still a few frames off, and didn't get the same creature (which was a Rocky Suezo).
Perhaps sub-channel information does contribute to the type of creature. My personal (and professional) opinion is that it doesn't. But we haven't proven it either way yet.
--Cats
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 13 (1/15/01 8:02:16 am) Re: 2 CDs and their data, for comparison -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's your answer, Lisa:
If you look at the $A2 table (which stores the total length of the given session), there's a very VERY important difference between the two:
The total number of frames for the Gaboo version is 7 frames. The total number of frames for the Satan Claus is 17 frames.
Thus, the total time *is* different (by about 0.14 seconds). I suspect that MR2 uses a special lookup table for some CDs (the Chipmunks one being one of them; can anyone confirm the Mariah Carrey Xmas CD as well?). This would also explain how Appetite for Destruction (hey, *I* have that CD...I gotta check it out!!) and Mechanical Animals also yield a Skeleton.
Otherwise, the Cd you insert fails on the lookup table (perhaps it's too sensitive?) and uses the "normal" equation to calculate what monster it should give.
But, keep in mind, this is still all conjecture. However, it *would* explain the differences we've noted here.
--Cats, the CD burning fool
Lisa Shock Monster Rancher posts: 5 (1/15/01 8:48:00 pm)
Re: 2 CDs and their data, for comparison -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the detailed look at the situation. Yes, I concur, there must be chart for the /??? monsters which the game uses to create them specially, any CD not precisely matching goes through the regular monster creation process. On rare occasion there are CDs that were clearly were not intended to make a certain /??? monster but do anyway (A guy found a PC CD that made one of the special MR1 monsters from a game magazine, complete with the magazine's logo!) and i think it's just one of those coincidences. Anyone who has seen Cinderbird (Phoenix/???) has to agree that it was probably designed for the Backdraft Soundtrack, not Bust A Move 4 which also makes it. (I own both.)
The person who listed the Mariah Carey CD for wracky/??? is reputable, and he gave us the UPC code when I mentioned that I had 2 pressings that both DIDN'T make it. (BTW, this one gets extra murky, in that the Mariah CD has versions with 10 & 11 tracks.) Anyway the UPC is on my board's CD list.
Thansk again, keep up the good work! Visit https://Monster-Rancher-Metropolis.com!
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 14 (1/16/01 12:00:58 pm) Re: Mechanic Animals -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Btw, my Appetite for Destruction CD also yields a Citronie.
--CG
alienjmh Monster Rancher posts: 2 (1/17/01 3:44:39 pm) Re: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all I would like to thank you for trying this. To get to the point- I have tryed 2 BSB Millinium Cds, both with a lot of scratches, and got a hopper, instead of the Happy Mask. Could this be a diff. make or because of the scratches?
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 19 (1/17/01 4:42:30 pm) Scratches & Creatures -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scratches and different creature: my gut tells me that it would be a different make, not the scratches.
Unless, of course, the scratches ruined your Table of Contents, in which case your CDs would be unreadable, in which case MR2 couldn't read it...
...Anyway, it's possible, tho, that the data on the CD does affect the type of creature or its stats. And a scratch may cause the reader to read false information. (Audios are great for recording--there's internal info to "extropolate" what the data would be if the reader could not read it; this isn't very handy for data CDs, however, since its data can't be lossy).
My 2 cents.
--Cats
alienjmh Monster Rancher posts: 5 (1/22/01 5:22:18 pm) Re: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to your theory, not that I'm a sceptic, wouldn't you be unable to get any enemy monsters from a disk because MR2 wouldn't have a specific "code" for it?
Lisa Shock Monster Rancher posts: 11 (1/22/01 5:41:06 pm) Of What From CDs? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. That would be why no one has ever found an enemy monster on CD. Every person claiming to have done it has never been able to produce the UPC code so that other people could go out and buy copies. Somehow, these CDs always seem to get "lost" or "misplaced" or "broken".
Googi Unregistered User (2/3/01 7:21:26 pm) Help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Someone called Red Hare said that you were looking for the help of someone that has a CD Rewrite. He told me to make a CD like this.
The tracks can be silent and the result should be a Swimmer(Mew/???)
What I want to know is how to "make my own tracks" so that I don't have to spend an hour looking on Napster for each song. I've got 1-5 so far.
CatsGodot Monster Rancher posts: 28 (2/5/01 12:07:23 pm) Re: Help. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CD Listings: Close, but not quite. We also need the number of frames that each track is associated with.
Re: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I tried two blank CDs. One by Memorex, another was unknown. I got a Hachiro, and a Melon Suezo *argh!*.
hengers rock Monster Rancher posts: 25 (2/6/01 5:56:12 pm) Re: Re: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- well, I dunno if this will help or not. I have a burned CD of "blink 182: Chesire Cat" that gives a phoenix. it is listed in the Database as giving a phoenix as well. I have no idea how mine was made, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't made with a CD copier. any questions u have, I probably can't aswer, but I felt I should add something from my own experience.
Varthlokkur Unregistered User (2/7/01 11:08:09 am) Excellent Work! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great research so far, CatsGodot. Wish I could help out on the burning side, but our burner is on the fritz. However, I do have several CDs that produce very similar monsters. I am going to do some side-by-side analysis of those CDs and see what we can see.
Re: Excellent Work! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To add to this (and bring to the top), I took each track from Beck's Mellow Gold CD that gives Mum Mew, and copied them to MP3 format. I then used Easy CD Creator to 'build' it as a new CD. When I had burnt this new CD, it came out as a Mum Mew. I will try a ??? monster next. Right after that, I will be trying to use the Subcode info at MRM to 'create' a Moo CD, by manipulating the #s. I am creating an Excel Database of all the ??? Subs that are listed at the site, along with any Dragon CDs that I can find, and comparing them to the non-Moo Beck CD. Any info I find will be at MRM, and could possibly end up here, and at Fade's board. Maybe with some luck, we could even 'make' Enemy CDs. I will see what happens, but I believe that the Enemy CDs will be impossible.
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