1st hypothesis: Monster is determined by the last PLBA#.

The first thing I noticed while comparing some Subcode files for Dragons was that the PLBA#s were all in the same range.
Tiamat = 168905
Gidras = 178582

The PLBA# on my Beck CD is 180268. I changed this # to 179268, just to see what it would do. I'll be back when the CD finishes, and I try it in my game. :)

OK. Still a Mum Mew. Stats:
Lif - 124
Pow - 71
Int - 93
Ski - 142
Spd - 175
Def - 120

Stats for Beck's Mum Mew are exactly the same. :/

I'll try lowering it by another 10,000. BRB

Same Mum Mew. Same stats. One more try for tonight. Then I'm going to bed.

I'm going to make the number 2000, and see if it has any effect whatsoever. If not, then the last PLBA# will be ruled out entirely for what type of monster you get. BRB

Again, same Mum Mew. Same stats.

So, what I learned today: The last PLBA# has nothing to do with stats or breed (Main or Sub).

New hypothesis tomorrow. :) out

I thought that somewhere, I have no idea where it's posted (here, at Josie's or at his homepage) that Catsgodot thought it had something to do with track one. I may be remembering this incorrectly, but it's probably worth a look-see.

Well, I plan on trying many things. I got a pack of 100 CDs for $30, so I can afford to waste a few. I kinda wanted to start fresh, and make sure I had everything straight in my head. :) Also, I looked through many of CatsGodot's threads, and don't remember seeing that one. At one point people thought it was the UPC, so who knows how many things are wrong in those early theories. I think CatsGodot had to retract a few statements. One in particular had him saying that the Subcode info has nothing to do with it. Ooops! hehe I'm going to do something extreme tomorrow. not just changing numbers. ;) (and as you see, I still haven't made it to bed) HA!

Good points! Get some rest, we look forward to the results of more experiments! -Even if you don't get the result you want, keep records of everything, it will help everyone out in the future!

(BTW, two rumors about the Beck CD are: there was a "clean" version that makes the rare, or, there was a version with a hidden track. I personally bought a "clean" version originally intended as an in-store demo, and it did not make Moo.)

Maybe Moo is located on the BMG version? I think someone over at MRCDDB may have it. Just waiting to hear back. Also, was MR1 Magnet on the 'other' Beck CD, also? Because mine doesn't make Magnet either. Man, that's one "gotta find" CD! lol

We have never found anyone who owned the "right" CD for either Moo or Magnet, so I really have no idea. I suspect that one pressing makes both monsters, like the Nirvana CD, and the Chipmunks.

The Man, aka HTML, aka Dano the Mano, said he owned the correct pressing. I haven't seen him around in a while though, I don't have his email, and I never bookmarked his website.

Just something I noticed. In the column that says the name of the user who submitted the CD the name says "nevistar@..." something something dot com. Isn't Nevistar one of those star trainers like RNA? Maybe you should e-mail him or something and ask for the subcode.

Nevistar is sorta the top guy when it comes to Monster Rancher, I've heard Dark Phoenix say he deserves more credit than he gets, and he gets a lot of credit.

Sorry, that's nevistar@hotmail.com

I didn't bother to check before.

New theory on Moo CD. The same people that did the clean version produced an explicit version one year later. Trying to find a copy right now.

My next attempt: Deleting or moving Entries in the session. "How much difference does it cause?"

I am going to take the original Beck CD, and delete the last entry from the session, and change it to "ToC Entries=14", and see what monster it changes to. BRB

Also, I have the explicit version, but not sure if it's the 'original' explicit version, or the 'new' explicit...

Well, that didn't go well. MR2 wouldn't read the CD. I just sat there on "(Checking the CD now...)". So I put the MR2 CD back in, and when the monster came out, it was the fabled Stripe Shell (see niton/kato thread in this forum).

This time, I will not delete any of the entries. I know that in the ALBA# for every Entry is 150, so we can count that out, as far as changing monsters or stats. I'm going to see if I can change some info in the first Entry, and see what effects it has. Here is what Entry 1 looks like:

[Entry 1]
Session=1
Point=0xa1
ADR=0x01
Control=0x00
TrackNo=0
AMin=0
ASec=0
AFrame=0
ALBA=-150
Zero=0
PMin=12
PSec=0
PFrame=0
PLBA=53850

Even though it is not the first Entry (0 is first), this one seems to correspond to an actual audio track on the CD (somehow).

I am going to do 3 (possibly 4) CDs for this experiment today.
CD1 - Change the PMin to 11
CD2 - Change the PSec to 30
CD3 - Change the Frame to 1
All other stats will be defaulted after each CD, and if I have enough reason to, then I will make one which includes all 3 the changes.

I'll be back after each CD to let you know what happens. :)

Here's an interesting result. The first CD presents us with a Purple Suezo (Suezo/Naga) with the following Stats:
Lif - 114
Pow - 121
Int - 103
Ski - 162
Spd - 115
Def - 120

All I changed on this CD was the PMin to 11. 1 whole minute shy of the actual data.

If you look closely at those #s, you'll notice that the last digit in each stat is the same #. Anyone want to theorize on that? ;)

Time to make the next CD. :)

John, I got my copy of the Beck CD from a radio station one week before it was released to the public. It makes Mum Mew.

Great work WHT Junior, it's great that you're "cracking the code"

I'm back to the 'same stat' Mum Mew again.

On to the next CD! ;)

BTW, if I get a Mum Mew, I'm pitching it. Anything that's new to me, I'll keep. For the most part, I'm not keeping these CDs.

Thanks mepersoner. I just want that **** monster. lol

WHT - Way To Go!!!
Thanks SO MUCH for helping out with all this!
I know myself for sure, and MANY MANY other people are very grateful.

And a special Thanks to Lisa, who introduced me to the CloneCD Technique and Use
Monster Fenrick

CD3 - Mum Mew (same stats)

A new direction has been pointed out to me by these CDs. I'm going to change the PMin to 11 again, but I'm going to add in the PSec=30 also. We'll see what that gets us. :)

Be back in a bit. :)

Thanks Fenrick. We may get a span of info that points to the Monster types, which could be random through the game. The times in the Entries seem to play some part, but we might need an 'exact time for the ??? monsters. I'm guessing that Moo would be very hard to come up with.

I started with a good one, ne?

Purple Suezo with the same stats as the other Purple Suezo.

Time to start narrowing these. I feel like Moo is right between them. Let's see how long it takes to find that spot. ;) NEXT CD!! hehe

The next CD, which I have just started, will be at 11 PMin and 45 PSec.

Same Purple Suezo. Now I'll move the time up to 11 PMin and 55 PSec. Anyone want to guess what I'll get? ;)

Same Suezo.
Changing time to 11 PMin and 59 PSec.

"Must... not... lose... faith..." ;)

The Purple Suezo again...
OK. There is nothing between Purple Suezo and Mum Mew at this time location. I'm going to try the time in Entry 0 and subtract one second from the time for that track. If I get a Purple Suezo, then we probably know why. ;)

It is currently at 1 PMin and 0 PSec.
Changing it to 0 PMin and 59 PSec.

Hmmm... I wish I knew something about this stuff so that I could be of more help.

Also, I changed my mind. I'm keeping these CDs, so I can make an MR1 comparison. I'd like to see if all these CDs make the same 2 monsters in MR1 as well.

Good idea.

And yet again, a CD that won't register in MR2. It just sits there on "(Checking the CD now...)", and not getting to the "Reading" part.

Next, I'm going to try to subtract that one second from Entry 2 on this CD here. BRB

This will be the last one for today. Tomorrow, I will take a 2-song CD, which will only have Entry 0 and Entry 1. I'll be changing the numbers by about a minute each, to start. Then I may have to fiddle with seconds, or even radically change the numbers. I'll see if there is much difference between Entry 0 and Entry 1 by swapping the numbers, also.

Scratch that. I'm going to do a couple more. ;)

I got a Mum Mew again, but WAIT!!! THERE'S MORE!!

Stats:
Lif - 117
Pow - 89
Int - 100
Ski - 163
Spd - 158
Def - 104

Lif, Spd, and Def went down, while Pow, Int, and Ski went up. I'm kinda busy here, could somebody do stat-totals comparisons for me? pleeeeze? ;)

Next CD: I'm dropping Entry 2's time by one more second. Be back in a bit. :)

Mum mew 1: 725
Mum mew 2: 731
Puple suezo: 735
Done in my head so watch out for error.

Next Mum Mew: CD13

Lif - 116
Pow - 77
Int - 97
Ski - 162
Spd - 159
Def - 118

Hmmm... I think I've stumbled on something. Stat manipulation. lol

I'll take off another second, and see what we get. BRB

719

CD14: Guess what? Another Mum Mew. Man, I'm gettin sick of seeing these. lol

Lif - 113
Pow - 87
Int - 99
Ski - 142
Spd - 168
Def - 119

Maybe I should go up next time. This one seems pretty low. 2 more CDs today, and I'm stopping. One, I'm subtracting 5 min, and the other I'll add 5 min. Be back with CD15 in a bit. :)

CD15: Stripe Shell (so much for looking at Mum Mews. lol)

Lif - 104
Pow - 51
Int - 103
Ski - 92
Spd - 155
Def - 160

OK, I guess a drastic change gets a drastically different monster. I'll let you know what CD16 comes up with when it's done. :)

CD16: Wanna talk Wracky? I got a Baby Doll (Wracky/Pixie) from this one.

Lif - 74
Pow - 21
Int - 133
Ski - 102
Spd - 185
Def - 80

If we can't fing the rares, then I'm pretty sure we can find all the regular Mains and Subs. I don't think I have ANY CDs with this on it. (although I could be wrong, since I haven't checked them all yet)

If anyone has any more theories, or wants to suggest I try something, go ahead and post it here. :) Tomorrow, I begin the 2-Song CD Subcode. I may just start mapping all the monsters as well as I can. I feel another Excel document coming on. hehe I may have been wrong before about the 2-Song CD only having Entry 0 and Entry 1. The lowest number of Entries I have seen in a Subcode file so far has been 4 (Entries 0 - 3), and that was for Time Noise (Kagero: Deception II)

See ya tomorrow, when I'll have LOTS of time. (I only work Tues-Fri)
-out

Why don't you try taking a /??? monster and slightly altering it? Or a dragon would probably work better instead of the mum mew. The reason is because people have gotten monsters that are really close to being the rare (starting off with the extra move) but aren't quite there. Such as hengersrocks tiger or Lisa's worm.

Why don't you see if you can take a few rares that run in a row like the pixie Rares and see if you can figure out if the Rares are hardcoded into the game? In other words, see if the game checks for one specific set of data then pulls the rare out of a dataset on the game cd.
The game undoubtedly does something like this to determine breeds (i.e. the skins). And it seems to me that they would save the most space by placing the rares in a CVF and setting flags for the game to go there when it hits that specific number or numbers.

Well, I think the tests from yesterday at least prove that the main 'non-rare' monsters are in no particular order if modifying the info. I'm going to go ahead and mix my next experiment with mepersoner's idea. I'm going to take either Time Noise (4 Entries) or an audio CD with as few tracks as possible, and change the info of the 1st or 2ns Entry by a second in each direction, and see if that gives us any info. I'll try Time Noise first. Here's the Entry I'll be modifying:

[Entry 0]
Session=1
Point=0xa0
ADR=0x01
Control=0x04
TrackNo=0
AMin=0
ASec=0
AFrame=0
ALBA=-150
Zero=0
PMin=1
PSec=32
PFrame=0
PLBA=6750

I will do one CD -1sec, and 1 CD +1sec. I'll be back in a few. :)

Oooops, I forgot that the last CD I read was Boys II Men's "Cooleyhighharmony". This CD will be a while. In the meantime, I'm going to play Triple Play PS2. :)

OK, I'm not having any luck at all making game CDs that give a new monster, while changing the info. So, what I'm going to do, is take the Shania Twain "Woman In Me" CD, and use that one. Since it is the last rare Pixie CD, I'm going to modify Entry 2 by adding 1 second. I'll be back to let you know what happens.

OK, that's not very promising.

CD17: Clear Shell (Niton/Jell)

LIF	POW	INT	SKI	SPD	DEF
110	40	154	118	96	134

I'm going to subtract 1 second fromthe original, and see which monster I get. Then, I'm going to try changing the time on the very last Entry, and see if it changes anything. Be back in a few with CDs 18 and 19.

Hmm... Tables are easier than I thought. ;)

Hey, WHT. I did a bit of reasearch of my own so please use the data in whatever way you can.
I looked for common places in the data:

-All in the range of 13-15 tracks
-All 1 session

Entry0:
-all Point=0xa0
-PMin were all 1
-PLBA 4350 (exception with tecno being 6750)

Entry1:
-all Point=0xa1
-Pmin were 10 or 12
-PLBA were 44850 or 53580

Entry2:
-all Point=0xa2
-Pmin ranged from 40-43
-Psec varied too much but the ranges were 11-50
-PLBA 180742-195800

Entry3:
-point all 0x01
-Psec were all 2
-PFrame 0-37
-PLBA 0-37

Entry4:
-PMin 0-18
-PSec 29-47
-PFrame 8-35
-point were all 0x02

etc. etc.

didn't bother to do the rest because their ranges were too great.

BTW, I compared Tecno, Dragon, Crab, and Armor.

CD18: Clear Shell (Niton/Jell)

LIF	POW	INT	SKI	SPD	DEF
108	59	156	127	88	128

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm starting to see a slightly random format to their 'Monster Table'. I got a Clear Shell when I raised Entry 2's time, and also got one when I lowered it.

Next, I defaulted everything back to normal, and changed the PSec of Entry 14 from 42 to 41. ( I just started to realize that I'm not keeping very good # changing information)

CD19: Alabia Niton (Niton/Bajarl)

LIF	POW	INT	SKI	SPD	DEF
95	112	91	144	89	123

Now THAT'S weird. I totally didn't expect that. I was sure expecting to see that Clear Shell again.

OK, for CD20, I'm going to change that last Entry to 43PSec, and see what I get. BRB J

And things get weirder.

CD20: Knight Niton (Niton/Durahan)

LIF	POW	INT	SKI	SPD	DEF
105	122	111	84	139	113

Next, I'm going back to the beck CD. I think if I keep going in either direction, I'll eventually find it, since this printing of the CD would have to be somewhat close to the actual CD that produces Moo. Since I already explored subtracting, I'm going to use Entry 0, and add 1PSec. I'll keep going one second at a time, until the monster type changes. Maybe(like Mia between the Clear Shells) Moo will have been inserted into these Mum Mews.

Be back in a bit. J

Hey Chaosphere, I haven't added the 2 Tiamat's yet, have I? Once I do that, you'll be boggled for sure. lol You'll see what I mean.

Also, every monster I've scanned in CloneCD, the PLBA of Entry 0 is always one of those 2 numbers. I haven't seen it vary at all.

Also, you forgot to mention the time difference for Tecno Dragon. Audio CDs will always show up as PMin=1 and PSec=0, but any PlayStation game will come up as PMin=1 and PSec=32.

Also, when modifying the numbers even one second, I'm noticing that the monsters aren't in order. It also seems like there is a bigger difference between montsers if I change the higher Entries' times.

OK, I'm reading over the topic again, and I noticed that I only did the PSuezo/MMew experiment by subtracting. Now I'm going to go the opposite direction, and add.

I will add 1 minute to PMin in Entry 1 for starters, changing it from 12 to 13. Also, Entry 0 seems to be a CD Lead-in track, and modifying the times in it make it unreadable by the game.

Not only that, but I've already used up 2 CDs on the previous experiment (CD21 & CD22), and got the old stat Mum Mew on both of them. I will eventually try the Mia experiment on this CD. (adding and subtracting 1 PSec from the very last Entry)

Eventually, you might want to start a new topic, simply titling it "part 2" is ok, just to make reading it easier. You also might consider making a table of all your CD data so far.

Thanks for doing all this research, it keeps getting more and more interesting!

Yeah, this thread is over 55 posts now. I'll start another one soon. No more posts in this one. It is for historical purposes only now. ;)