Hello all. It's been a while since my last post here. Recently, I sent Lisa an e-mail showing her a link to the following site:


https://otakuworld.com/index.php?/games/psx/mrcd.htm


It contains information on the CDs that will generate the remaining unknown monsters for MR1:


Doodle (Doodle/Doodle)
Damned Damned Damned by The Damned

Planet (Suezo/???)
The Best of Earth, Wind, and Fire, Vol.II by Earth, Wind, and Fire

Hot Foot (Ape/???)
Live at the Apollo by James Brown

Sam (Jell/???)
Paris, Texas Original Soundtrack

Stripe (Jell/???)
Beach Boys Concert by The Beach Boys


So just a quick recap about who I am and why I am here.

A few years ago, I started researching Monster Rancher for the PSX to figure out how the game determines what monsters to give you based on the used CD. Like a lot of people, I've been curious for a long time about this. I even kept old CDs around for purposes of one day having a complete CD collection that would make one of every monster. (Which I threw out years later when I finally figured out the algorithm.)

Thanks to my chosen career path, and a lot of interest in this... and of course the aid of some tools out there... I was able to figure out what data is used from the CDs to create the monsters. It was most definitely exciting to finally know this type of info!

Later on, I went back and did the same thing with Monster Rancher 2 for the PSX as well. Both games use very similar information from the CDs and the algorithm is pretty much the same.

I haven't "officially" finished my research, and I've been busy with a lot of other things, so I have not created any document explaining this. I did some work in 2005, and then moved on to other things when I got bored. Same thing happened in 2006. One day, when I have time to get back to this project, I will wrap things up and create a FAQ with this info. For now, though, I still need to finish, and one thing that I need help with is the CloneCD subcode file format.

During my research, I discovered, among other things, the requirements to get every hard-coded monster in the game. The following is a list of all the monsters from Monster Rancher 1 and Monster Rancher 2 that, at the time, no one knew what CDs would make them. (All monsters whose subcode and real CD data were unknown at the time.)

MONSTER RANCHER 1

Stripe (Jell/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 32:10, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:27

Sam (Jell/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 34:13, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:59

Planet (Suezo/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 43:27, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:45

Hot Foot (Ape/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 73:34, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:33

Tank (Worm/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 46:05, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:43

Doodle (Doodle/Doodle)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 31:19, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:44

MONSTER RANCHER 2

Dribbler (Niton/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 61:04, LAST TRACK TIME = XX:02

Pole Mock (Mock/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 39:42, LAST TRACK TIME = XX:00

As you can see from above, the only requirements for hard-coded monsters are based on the total CD time, and the seconds portion of either the 1st track, or last track on the CD, depending on the game. Yes, it's really that simple and generic.

For non-hard-coded monsters, MR1 also uses the total number of tracks as an additional factor, and MR2 appears to use total CD time, track 1 time, and last track time. I say it "appears" to use only this info because it's been a while since I looked into this, and this is what I have in my notes. (which admittedly are not easy to understand after all the years. :p) I never completed the research for MR2 either, and I never even bothered to analyze how non-hard-coded monsters were fully made at the time.

This information is then combined with a "random table" to help make it seem more complicated than it really is, which is why you probably would never figure out the pattern without knowing the existence and contents of this random table. (The random table has constant values, but the numbers in them are pseudo-random.)

After communications with Lisa in 2005, and a verification of the subcode file by John Hawley, she posted the data for Doodle in the following topic:

Monster Rancher Metropolis: The Laboratory: Technical Research On The Monster Rancher CD Read Process: Subcode Data Files: Monster Rancher Subcode Files (US Version Only): CD Subcode Data For Pure-Breed Monsters: Doodle (Doodle/Doodle)

The subcode file was one of my creations. You can see from the real CD subcode file she found years later, that indeed the requirements above match.

I later posted additional subcodes here:

Monster Rancher Metropolis: The Laboratory: Technical Research On The Monster Rancher CD Read Process: General Q & A: For those who wanted to complete the MR1 Archive...

She later posted the real CD subcode for the Tank:

Monster Rancher Metropolis: The Laboratory: Technical Research On The Monster Rancher CD Read Process: Subcode Data Files: Monster Rancher Subcode Files (US Version Only): CD Subcode Data Archive /??? Monsters: MR1: Tank (Worm/???)

Again, you can see a match here between my subcode file and her actual CD, on the requirements information above.

In any case, the point is this: the requirements to get the above monsters are those posted above. The only thing left to figure out is how to generate a subcode file with the above requirements that actually works.

I noticed that there have been complaints about some of my subcode files not working. Well, as you can see from the Doodle, the Tank, and the CDs I sent to Lisa with the Pole Mock and the Dribbler, I'm obviously not just making these up - these are the real requirements enforced by the game. The problem is that I lack knowledge on the subcode files, and how to create one to match the requirements above without messing up the burning process. Not to mention that some CD players read things differently... :(

Someone also complained that my Tank data is incomplete, compared to the data Lisa uploaded. Here's the thing: the subcode file does not have to be "complete" - it just needs to match the minimum requirements to get the monster. If you need proof that this is true, please look up the data for the Doodle again:

Monster Rancher Metropolis: The Laboratory: Technical Research On The Monster Rancher CD Read Process: Subcode Data Files: Monster Rancher Subcode Files (US Version Only): CD Subcode Data For Pure-Breed Monsters: Doodle (Doodle/Doodle)

You can see that my subcode, which was posted on May 29, 2005 by Lisa, was verified to provide a Doodle, and the subcode for the real CD that Lisa found on February 18, 2009 contains a lot more data than mines, and yet, my subcode still works. Again, you only need to match the minimum requirements to get the monster. The only real problem is getting the subcode file to actually burn, and not make Frisbees.

One thing I will mention, though is that I am not sure if the data used for MR1 is technically the length of track 1, or the entry point for track 2. Either way, the data should match almost exactly. This question is one of those things I never got around to testing thoroughly. Maybe one day I'll test this and know for sure, but the "length of track 1" - which appears to be the data written to Entry 4 of the subcode file - is probably good enough for this.

Here is an e-mail I recently sent to Lisa about the Doodle subcode files:


I compared my version with the actual CD and here are the differences I noted:

Again, the requirements I previously derived:
Doodle (Doodle/Doodle)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 31:19, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:44

Differences:

Mines: TocEntries=5
Original: TocEntries=15
This should be dependent on the number of tracks, so I don't see why it should "break" the burning, assuming everything else is consistent with this value.

[Entry 1]
Mines: PMin=5
Original: PMin=12
Not sure what Entry 1 is used for, to be honest...

[Entry 2]
Mines: Control=0x04, PFrame=15
Original: Control=0x00, PFrame=12
The Control looks like it might be an important change. I used 0x04 because it was used on the original subcode file that I altered.
The PFrame should not matter. It should be part of the total run-time for the CD. Notice that both mines and the original have a runtime here of 31:19:XX, just as I said that is required for a Doodle. :)

[Entry 3]
Mines: PFrame=32
Original: PFrame=0
Just like Entry 1, I'm not sure what Entry 3 is used for either... >_>'

[Entry 4]
Mines: PMin=0, PSec=44, PFrame=15
Original: PMin=2, PSec=44, PFrame=62
This one should be either the length of track 1, or where track 2 should start. Either way, notice that both mines and the original have a time of XX:44:XX, which is the only other requirement for a Doodle that I mentioned before. :)

The remaining entries should not be needed as long as I have TocEntries=5. Basically, my subcode should say there are only 2 songs... The original CD has 12 tracks, correct? In that case, simulating a CD with only 2 tracks should have 5 for TocEntries...

The PLBA values for all of them just have to match the PMin:PSec:PFrame total. 75 Frames per second, 60 seconds per frame, so:

PLBA = (PFrame) + (PSec * 75) + (PMin * 60 * 75) - 150.

Not sure why you have to deduct 150 (2 seconds) but this appears to be the formula and is consistent with the original CD's subcode as well... In any case, I obviously calculated all the PLBA values according to this formula.

So really, the only differences here should be:

1. Entry 1 = 12:00:00 instead of 5:00:00.
2. Entry 2 has a Control of 00 instead of 04.
3. Entry 3 = 0:02:00 instead of 0:02:32.

I don't see how the other differences could possibly break the burning process. A 2-track CD instead of a 12-track CD should not be a problem, nor should the total time of the CD (entry 2) or the first track (entry 4). Then again, I can't say that I know for sure what those entries should REALLY mean...

So it looks like the real problem is those other special details here and there about CloneCD that I just don't know about... I'll post my e-mail in the boards later... Thanks for letting me know! :)


So bottom line is, if you wanted to know what are the requirements to get the remaining monsters for Monster Rancher 1 and 2, look at the data posted above in this message. The actual format of the CloneCD subcode file, however, can vary from the subcodes I posted. We need someone with a thorough understanding of CloneCD's subcode files to come in and explain how to properly convert the above monster requirements to correct CloneCD subcode files... so if any of you has information on this, and can derive correct subcodes for the above monsters and their requirements, please post away! :)

NOTE: I almost forgot to mention, the requirements for a Dribbler are above:

Dribbler (Niton/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 61:04, LAST TRACK TIME = XX:02

However, the CloneCD subcode file I posted only had 4 TocEntries, which should equate to 1 single track, thereby being a data CD. I just looked through my old notes, and here is what I remember / put together from this:

The "full requirements" for the Dribbler are as follows:
TOTAL CD = 61:04, TRACK 1 = 0:00, LAST TRACK = 0:02

Basically, the game keeps track of all 6 requirements for all monsters, but it only really enforces the total CD time and the seconds portion of the last track for hard-coded monsters. That said, the above requirements I posted should be valid.

HOWEVER, all hard-coded CDs that are based off data CDs are stored in the following manner:

TOTAL CD = XX:XX, TRACK 1 = 0:00, LAST TRACK = 0:02

So although the above-mentioned requirements should be valid, the "real CD" that the game is looking for is a Data CD, (i.e. only 1 track), and whose CD length is 61:04. Note that I can't say with absolute certainty that the game is not looking for a data-CD-only here. In other words, it is possible that the game will ONLY accept single-tracked CDs here for this monster, but I am not sure. The 00:00 for track 1 and 00:02 for track 2 can potentially lead to the game treating the CD differently - another thing I need to research further.

In any case, this type of CD should generate the above requirement too. Just remember, a lot of this is based on memories from over 2 years ago, and on research that I never fully completed, so be wary of this!

If you are still looking for the real CD that makes Dribbler, it should be a Data CD, and the real CD that makes a Pole Mock should be a music CD... or possibly a PSX CD, since those have more than 1 track too. Now that I think about it, some PSX games can also have a single track, so the Dribbler can also be from a PSX game...

For reference, here are all the hard-coded monsters for single-tracked CDs in MR2:

Frog Hopper (Hopper/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 42:33

Ninja Kato (Kato/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 65:32

Boxer (Bajarl/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 28:23

Birdie (Suezo/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 35:31

GabooSoldier (Gaboo/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 66:42

Dribbler ( Niton / ??? )
TOTAL CD TIME = 61:04

Time Noise (Naga/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 46:28

Notice that the duplicate subcode posts in the boards for some of these all have the same data for their required CD lengths. For example, The Birdie subcode posted by John Hawley and the Birdie subcode posted by Lisa Shock both have 35:31 for the total CD length. (Entry 2 of the subcode file)

Well, I hope that clears up all the mysteries about what's read from the CDs in these two games... I didn't want to post anything about my research until I officially finished it, but since I've been putting it off for years now, and since people are complaining about the subcode files I posted, I thought I should post this now and write up a more thorough FAQ in the future... again, remember that my research is incomplete, so don't bet your life that the above is 100% correct...

Now if we can only get someone to figure out the subcode file format...

Lisa, are you sure you posted the correct subcode file for Sam from the Paris Texas soundtrack?

I noticed you posted it, and I also noticed that the CD data does not match the requirements I posted above. I started to wonder what was going on, but then I noticed the subcode data you posted is identical to the one for the Doodle.

Can you double-check that you didn't accidentally post the subcode for The Damned again, instead of the subcode for Paris Texas?

OK, it looks like Lisa fixed it. As predicted, the CD that makes Sam has a Total CD Time of 34:13 and a Track 1 Time of XX:59...

So, the problem with various versions of Beck's Mellow Gold have to do with differences in the last track, I bet...

Looking at the internal data I have, the requirements for a Moo are as follows:

TOTAL CD = 47:40
LAST TRACK = XX:06

Actually, as I mentioned in my very long post, the game actually keeps track of all 6 "requirements" although it only enforces the 3 above. The entire data that is kept for this monster in the actual game is:

TOTAL CD TIME = 47:40
TRACK 1 TIME = 03:57
LAST TRACK TIME = 40:06

Looking at the subcode posted for the Moo, this information matches exactly with the info on Entry 2, Entry 4, and the last Entry of the subcode file. Clearly, this means that the data the game reads must exactly match the subcode data, and it's supposed to be the entry point of track 2 and the entry point of the last track.

Since the last track's information stored by the game is set to 40:06, it's pretty obvious that it is not the "length of the last track" but rather the entry point of the last track... I guess that clears up that remaining mystery...

It's probably the same for Monster Rancher 1... The value used there is probably the entry point of track 2, instead of the length of track 1, at least from a more technically-correct aspect. I suppose this makes more sense because the "length of track 1" always reads as 0 for CDs with only 1 track...

Hmm... I just realized that the complete CD data stored by the game, whether it is an enforced requirement or not, will still give some insight into what the real CD should look like... Therefore, revealing the complete CD info stored by the game will likely be helpful in tracking down what CD is supposed to generate the remaining monsters... so, for Monster Rancher 2, here are the characteristics of the real CDs that are supposed to make these monsters:


Dribbler (Niton/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 61:04
TRACK 1 TIME = 00:00
LAST TRACK TIME = 00:02
* CD with only 1 track

The real CD that is supposed to make the Dribbler should be a single-track CD with a length of 61:04, as calculated by the Playstation and CloneCD.

Pole Mock (Mock/???)
TOTAL CD TIME = 39:42
TRACK 1 TIME = 03:44
LAST TRACK TIME = 36:00
* CD with more than 1 track

The real CD that is supposed to make the Pole Mock should be some CD that has more than 1 track, whose CD length should be 39:42, whose track 1 length should be around 03:44, (entry point of track 2) and whose entry point of its last track should be 36:00 (which probably means the last track should be around 3:42?)


When looking at a CD, keep in mind that the runtimes that show up on the back of the CD (or even on a CD player) will not necessarily match those that the Playstation and CloneCD will calculate. For example, looking at the album that makes a Doodle, the total length, according to the subcode file, and the total length of the CD (according to various web pages) is actually off by several seconds...

Still, this information should at least -help- in tracking down the real CDs that are supposed to make these monsters... For example, if you find a CD that you suspect should give you the Pole Mock, but its runtime is something like 55 minutes, then it's probably not the CD that makes Pole Mock, because the 15+ minute difference is way too much for it to be a rounding numbers issue between the displayed length and the length calculated by the game...

I think we got rid of posts with subcode from the copies of Mellow Gold that didn't make Moo, but I can post some in the next few days, just for fun. IIRC, I may have one that works in MR1 but not in MR2 -makes Mum Mew.

I have several copies that make Ray (suezo/plant) in MR1 and Mum Mew (shudder) in MR2. Posted the subcode here:

Monster Rancher Metropolis: The Laboratory: Technical Research On The Monster Rancher CD Read Process: Subcode Data Files: Monster Rancher Subcode Files (US Version Only): Requested CDs: Ray (Suezo/Plant) from Beck's Mellow Gold

Hmm... I guess I should have checked the CDs list here... it contains the name of the CDs that are supposed to make Pole Mock and Dribbler:

Pole Mock:
Electric Warrior

Dribbler:
FIFA 99 (PSX)

Not sure about the FIFA 99 CD, but looking at the Album info for Electric Warrior:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Warrior

It appears that the CD runtime closely matches, and the first and last tracks also seem to match:

Wikipedia:
TOTAL = 39:02
TRACK 1 = 3:40
LAST TRACK = 3:40

Game Data:
TOTAL = 39:42
TRACK 1 = 03:44
LAST TRACK = ( 39:42 - 36:00 ) = 3:42

So what's the deal with this CD? Was it ever tested? I mean Dark Phoenix posted that as the CD that makes a Pole Mock... the neat thing is that the Wikipedia listing contains a picture of the album that makes the monster, so it should be easier to find the right version. (Assuming the Album cover matches the description listed.)

Was this CD's subcode data ever generated?

Hmm... I've been looking through ebay to see if I find a copy, and it looks like there were multiple re-releases of this album even after MR2 was released. Tracking the original one is probably quite difficult... and apparently, quite costly too...

I currently own 11 copies of this CD, including pressings from the UK, Germany, etc. -All printed before the game's release, and none work.

I confirmed the disc with Tecmo USA, but, they mailed the CDs to Japan, and Japan did not retain them, so I don't have any way to check info. There's a thread in the Misc Q&A section of the MR2 archive chronicling a lot of my failures in this quest.

DP posted the rare during our move in April 2000. Tecmo US had published a partial list of rares for game magazines, and this was on that list. IIRC, DP didn't actually own it.

I buy copies when I see them at used music stores, but, having spent over a thousand dollars on CDs that didn't work, I am very wary.

BTW, did you see THIS cover? I'm pretty certain that it's the wrong CD, but the cover image is sooo tempting. Can't afford it right now, either.

Do you happen to have the subcode files for those? I'm wondering whether or not at least one of those 11 CDs you have has very close data to the above requirements. If so, this could potentially be one of those mistakes done when they made the game.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time that a wrong digit was used in a game, because the developers typed in a '1' instead of a '7' or something silly like that... Perfectly reasonable for human errors to happen once in a while. :)

If one of those subcode files matches the above requirements except for maybe a single digit for one of them, then it's quite possible that this is an error of this kind...

If you don't have the subcodes for them easily accessible, don't worry about it. I realize you have a lot of other things going on and you don't exactly have time to re-generate the subcodes for 11 CDs. But if you already have them all saved up in your computer anyways, then it wouldn't hurt to ask. :)

I'll go check out the other threads for MR2...

OMG @ that cover... but $125.00 just to test the CD for a monster? Sounds pricy...

Yea, I'm currently out of a job so I couldn't afford something like that either... maybe he'd be willing to sell the subcode file for like $5.00? lol...

Oops... silly me, I just noticed that CD from Amazon is not even for Electric Warrior anways... >_>'

I'll post the most likely (non-import, non-music club) version's subcode in a little bit. It will be in the MR2 requested section.

I've been having issues with my computer, a fairly new XP machine. This is the first time I have used CloneCD on it, and the IMAGE.CCD file keeps not being overwritten despite me checking the box saying it's ok to overwrite. I then toss the whole file in the recycle bin and then empty the recycle bin. Then, for 2-3 reads, there is no visible file at all. Then, eventually, there are several duplicates. It's weird.

Ok, I have discs ordered and arriving soon for James Brown, EWF, Beach Boys and FIFA99. I will order a couple more TRex this upcoming week, as I get paid.

Wow... the total CD length is off by just 4 seconds, track 1 is off by 1 second, and the last track is off by 2 seconds... darn... but that's definitely too many numbers that don't match...

Anyways, it's cool that you're willing to get those discs, but I think you shouldn't keep wasting your money on this... I think it's unfair for you that you keep spending your hard-earned money on CDs to find the remaining monsters for MR1...

If you already got 11 CDs for Electric Warrior that fail, then I think it's time to cut your losses... maybe someday someone will come along with the CD and post it... and if not, so what? It's just a game... but spending more and more money on CDs strictly for purposes of looking for a monster to make for MR1?

I salute your hard-core-ness, but I don't think it's fair for you... creating subcode files that work sounds like a perfectly reasonable (and much cheaper!) alternative to me, and I don't think anyone should spend loads of money on CDRs either... anyways, that's just my 2 cents on this...

That reminds me.. given that the name of the album is not enough information to know which CD will make what monster, would it be a good idea to post additional information, like the UPC or some other universal identifier for the CD, so that other people looking for the CD can track down the exact version?

I noticed that the CD lists here have info on which CDs make which monsters, but this kind of identifier would greatly help for future users... probably a pain to go back and add this to all the CD lists for all the games, but at least something to start doing from now on? :)

Darn, no edit or delete button for posts... oh well...

Sorry, I just noticed that the UPC is actually requested on the front pages for the CDs lists... I guess people just forget to do that... >_>'

Yeah, most people just don't bother. In some cases, entries were 'moved over' from our old site in haste, and the person posting isn't the disc owner.

The UPC isn't really needed for PSX games, since each title has just one UPC regardless of how many pressings it got.

I try to add info if I can, check out my listing for the pure Doodle...

Well, Live at the Apollo did not work; it made a tiger/naga. I am kind of wondering about this one, since there are several concert recordings made in different years at the Apollo. I'll post the bad code tomorrow, just to see if this is even the right album.

Woa... that CD was soooo close...


From my post:

Hot Foot (Ape/???)
Required: TOTAL CD TIME = 73:34, TRACK 1 TIME = XX:33


From your post:

[Entry 2]
PMin=73
PSec=34
PFrame=5

[Entry 4]
PMin=0
PSec=32
PFrame=55


The total CD time matches exactly as needed, but the entry point of the second track is off by 1 second... (20 frames to be exact) I guess there must be some other pressing that hits it right on the nail... but finding it could be a pain...

At least we know this one is the right recording, James Brown recorded several concerts at the Apollo.

Beach Boys CD arrived and works, will post code later.