In a thread at monster-rancher.com, thecampster30 has posted that battle sense is to mr3 what skill was to mr2. i argue that the only thing for sure i know about battle sense is that it makes it easier to improve your tech levels in noisy halls, and that it is an overstatement to equate it to skill in mr2.

who is right? whose cuisine will reign supreme? anyone have anything to add here?

Well, I have had some monsters, the ones I am raising for their techs primarily, who have spent their whole lives with the sense at E, but have no problem dishing out particular attacks (Stone & Orb) with 999 damage in S level tourneys whenever they want. The Nagas in particular, generally had 500/999/1/800/300, with E sense, and one would think that if an ability like "skill" were involved, that the Pow would not be so effective.

One would think that if it were a hidden "skill" that some high level opponents in some S level tourney would display it as well, making them really good without an apparent corresponding stat. This can't be the case, at least for oppponents, because in this game the opponents are extremely fairly made. There is no Oakleyman running around. This was one of the very first observations I made while playing the Japanese game. Early on, I had the computer control the battles, because I wasn't that knowledgable about the tech system. I noticed that the game often gave me a win when my stats were just slightly high than my opponent, unlike MR2.

In my experience, Mogis are the Oakleymen of MR3. Others have experienced this as well. This may have more to do with Groovy Moves than battle sense though.

I'm not certain if this is my imagination, or just luck of the observation, but I've noticed, or believed, that "sense" determines three factors in the game:

1.) We're all aware that Battle "Sense" increases the amount of skill points gained in Noisy Hall training ventures.

2.) It is my current belief that "Sense," whether directly or indirectly, effects the monster's invisible chance percentage to inately block and/or dodge attacks. The problem is that I don't really know how to prove this one.

3.) For my Pixie, Zuum, and Zan, "Sense" has seemed to become the determining factor in random chance of locating "Orb" items from the "bad feeling" spots. However, this cannot be the ONLY factor pending, since none of my Raiden had much luck in the matter of "Orb" hunting.

As I said, whether this is all in my head, or just a coincidence of facts, it's been my experience.

I would vote against it. If you see a monster with an A Sense rating missing with a tech that has a Hit in the upper 50's, it just makes me think that the stats are the real determining factor.

BTW: Exaton from the Kalaragi Big 5 Tournament gets my vote for Oakleyman in MR3. Even if you hit him, you can't hurt him and what other Beaklon hits with Beakrocket?

When i was raising Panthy to get tech stats, it did horrible and only KO'ed 4 opponents, and the sense didn't raise. After it won a tourney with 6 opponents in it, it went up to D, however it didn't KO any of the opponents. I think that there might be a point system that where, say, a win might be worth 1 pt and a KO might be worth 2 or 3 points. And each sense level might require a certain number of points to get to. (the value of the points are just examples, im not saying those are the actual values).

Another thing with surprised me, is that i eventually got panthy's sense up to C, but
after a while without fighting, it mysteriously went back down to D. I don't know if this could have to do with a monster getting to much sleep, or if it was just a coinsidence or a glitch. I don't know, but it never happened (as far as i noticed) with any of my other monsters which i never let slack off.

The obvious test for this statement, see original thread, is to raise two monsters to the same (as close as possible, being aware of the possibilty of "levels" at the 100s and 50s marks) stats, but have one of them have a really elevated battle sense. Then save their VS data, and have the comp run a series of battles (at least 50)with them.

Nothing special here, they can even be fairly young, and low in stats. The 50 minimum on battles is to avoid the randomness between left/right that DemonKnight proved in MR2.

(For those who don't recall, DK took on the premise that the game favored one side or the other in 2P battles. He took the same monster and fought it against itself with the comp controlling. The first 10 battles had a result of a real advantage appearing for one side, but as he got to 20 the wins evened a bit, and, as he got to 50 tries, he had a result that was almost exactly split. Just like a random coin toss would show.)

However, it is annoying that the person making the claim won't deign to test it. Just goes to show the diference between the two sites. Here we expect people to actually do the research to support their claims. There, I guess, they expect other people to do it for them.

I was planning to do that, to see which accessories had benifits by have two monster who were exactly the same fight, one with an accessory the other with none.

I've had my "Sense" drop as well, Tigerbubble. It was with my Angel, and following with my Ootan. Hence, my vote also goes for a point system. Since those last two, I noticed that my Gai never had that problem, as he would always beat up one monster on expedition after he elevated and it never decreased. I think the problem was just that your monster was a see-saw between "D Sense" and "C Sense," and the lack of anything else to keep it up left it falling to the previous. However, if you DO have enough points, the "Sense" will not fall, regardless. Thus, I believe you to be right in that case.

I now notice that the person making the original claim is telling it to others as if it is pure fact, without proof of any tests whatsoever. He says that he in the process of testing it, but hasn't even outlined what those tests are.....

I have started the test for this. It's going to be extremely time-consuming. (Why does de-bunking these claims always wind up taking so much time???)
Here's what I am doing:

I have a Mocchi, the one the game starts with. That way, anyone can duplicate my results, with no variances off CD. (I will also make a SharkPort save available when I am done.)

I raised it until the loyalty was 100%

I made sure it was slim.

I saved its VS data.

Now, I have it frozen, and I am only taking it out for ventures and possibly rest.

I am simply having it battle on ventures. If it finds something that affects a stat, I reset and try again, until I just get a battle.

When the sense level goes up, I will save the VS data, and then start having the two run a series of test battles, 50 minimum.

So far, after 2½ hours of work, I have managed to get two ventures battles completed. The last one toook a half-hour of resetting before encountering the opponent!

I'll keep working on it, and keep you updated!

Well, I spent another 2 hours working on it tonight. It's going to take a long time to get the sense levelled up! I guess it's a good thing I only raised it for 11 months before starting, it may take the rest of his life to raise the sense through venture battles.

I (sadly) don't have the game, but from the previous discussion it sounds to me as if "battle sense" Is more like fame than anything else, but not achieved in the same manner as in MR2. You may not get anythng for having high battle sense but when you win it's value goes up and when noone has heard of your exploits (no battles entered) it goes down. What say you?

I have an definitive answer. Spent 3 hours on it this morning. Got the Mocchi up to D sense, then made a VS data save of it, remember, both mocchis are actually the same one just saved at slightly different times in its life. Here's how they stack up:

comaprison	Mocchi w/E sense	Mocchi w/D sense
Age	11m	1y 1m
Stats	identical	identical
Characteristics	identical	identical
Form	Slim	Slim
Techs	identical	identical

I ran 100 battles this morning. I had the comp control them. Had the settings at: Random arena, Format = win, Infinite time, Life Display = present, Handicap 5 5.

And....big drum roll.....

The results:
Mocchi with E Sense =51
Mocchi with D sense =49

In the world of scientific research, this is considered to be a draw. No advatage to either side.

The battles themselves were extremely close almost every time, with one exception. The monsters traded almost even damage til the end, with lifebars around 11 vs 14, then whoever hit next would win. No major upsets. no real excitement.

Now, the bigger question is, do we move all this to the "Hoaxes, Myths & Pranks" section?

And, I made a Sharkport save of the two monsters, which Fenrick has agreed to host on his site. Click HERE to download it and maybe test for yourself. I'm not going to say which monster is which....

Lisa,

I'm honored to receive mention on your board...however I do take a small bit of offense at a little of this.

B. I truly don't appreciate you stating I don't test. I test or I don't speak...period.

C. E sense to D sense is entirely too close to provide a variable.

D.Low stats don't provide for large hit descrepencies and don't exploit bonuses.

E. I firmly agree that Mogi is the oakleyman of this game.

In my tests, I used Momo, Zan and MetalHead (Lezione/???). I ran each up to an approximate stat composite of 2500 with about 500 in each category. Each had their original 2 attacks and the Jade and aurora stone attacks with the Jade stone attack being passed on as maxed out. Same basic characteristics. Neither of the monsters were trained in other attacks on ventures.

My original experiment was with Zan, but after being challenged by Torey, I went home and did the identical experiment with the other 2, with very similar results. I chose to do the Zan originally as I noticed a couple of monsters (one a Zan) performing much better after battling earlier and a little more often and since the rivals suggest it, I thought I'd test it.

My experiment did not involve the 2 player mode in the game. Since my desire is to play the game and not battle other players (though I would), I did my test in game. Furthermore there is no guarantee that "2p mode" takes all monster attributes into account (though I'm sure it does, I chose not to use it). In the original experiment I shrined a pure Zan from the encyclopedia and saved the game in slot one and raised stats to the desired level then fought 3 straight official tourneys (hibernating between them)to raise to rank "B" and keep battle sense "E". Then saved at September 4th week, year 1064 official tourney "B". I then saved this game on slot 5. I reloaded slot 1's game and started again with the exact same Zan. I battled immediately in the Official tourney's to raise rank to "B" and battled in mid-month invitationals to raise Battle Sense to "A" and continued to raise stats to the nearest possible total. Then Hibernated to September 4th week, year 1064 official tourney "B". I then Entered each tourney on each game...played...recorded data, reset and played again (ticked my wife off). I played each game 10 times (10 tourneys, 5 opponents..about 50 battles minus forfeits). 5 times I let the computer control the game for each and 5 times I controlled it. My battle style is to stand still until guts reaches 99 and attack, stand still till 99 and attack (very little room for variables). I only used the Jade stone technique. In my experiment, he was about 25 % more effective. Not satisfied I battled the first guy till he was sense "C" and replayed the experiment on the same weeks/years tourneys again with very similar stats..The higher sense Zan was about 15-20% more effective (hit percent and damage). To be honest I only fought this tourney again 4 total times with me in control of each, but the results were enough for me.

Lastly, as far as you saying I'm stating this as fact or haven't tested it, here is my direct quote from mine and Torey's conversation on the other board:

"This was just my own observation and I wish I was smart enough to figure this all out on my own, but I spent countless hours reading the stuff at MRM and dontbewillful (yes, I filtered all the bogus crept out) before I started playing and experimenting on my own. Currently, I'm just trying to finish my encyclopedia, but I hate hearing this same questions over and over about (my stats are high but my monster sucks...help???). It's a video game. It computes, it doesn't think. So I figured it's easier to just point some folks on the right path. For me and everyone I've helped with game, battlesense has made the difference. "

But of course if you'd prefer I don't attribute the great help this site has been to me, just let me know! But if everyday on the other board a different person jumps up to say their monster has phenominal stats but can't hit the broad side of a barn, there's got to be a reason.

For me and the sanity of all present, try repeating my exact experiment and report the results. From you a neutral 3rd party, I'll happily accept that answer!!!

Hi Torey.

By the way, my assessment of Battle sense was that it's an enhancer. Very similar to skill but not exactly the same. That it increases hit percent, hit damage, etc.

thanx for all the detail provided, dave. it will prove grist for our research mill here.

let me quibble with 2 statements of yours. you say:

"C. E sense to D sense is entirely too close to provide a variable.

D.Low stats don't provide for large hit descrepencies and don't exploit bonuses."

you say this with absolute certaintude. yet the test results you provide offer no support for these statements. if the difference between E and C is 15-20%, as you note above, one would expect the difference between E and D to be a number larger than 0. furthermore, if there is a large difference at composite 2500, as indicated in your testing, one would be surprised to find that effect to completely disappear at stat levels lower than that. even a small difference would be expected to show up over a run of 100 tests, as was done here.

I guess my excessively long post is a little confusing.

A compared to E was about 25%
A compared to C was 15-20%

On say a Mocchi with Stat composite of say 900 (180 average) and sense D or E. Chance could still play a role. AS WITH MONSTER RANK there is little difference between an E and D rank monster. But a C and A monster differential is huge. Plus the bonuses on a 180 power hit would be little as there is little difference between the 2. Here's my guess (and based on this thread I guess it's only a guess till Lisa verify's or discredits my results), that you get a 5% ish bonus per level.

So a Mocchi at 180 power only gets a boost of 9 points (5%) between E and D sense. But a monster at 500 power gets a 100 point bonus (20%) between E and A sense or a 50 point bonus (10%) between C and A. Once again this part of it is pure speculation on my part, but I would actually appreciate Lisa Verifying or Discrediting my results. However, my family (4 people) and 3 of my kids young teenage friends are all playing this game and have all agreed that battle sense has produced better in game battle performance.

Actually, a little background on me. I'm a computer hardware tech. I spend all day making hypothesis after hypothesis to why users computers and networks don't work (toddler putting raisins in the floppy drive and cdrom is my best one yet), so I am a little familiar with testing crazy things that don't make sense.

One small last thing. The thing I said I was testing was a different part. In the post I thing you were referring to, I stated that Battle Sense makes a difference period...but I also added that there are other factor, stats - form - characteristics and then I brought up the possibility that maybe move type (not int or pow but wind, magic, fire, earth etc) was more easily blockable or dodgeable based on monster type and that I had tested most of these things but I was working on affiliation or monster type against move type. Hence why Mogi seems to dodge so many types of moves.

here I go off topic, but like in, yuck, pokemon ground beat lightning but lightning beat water which beat ground, maybe a monster like mogi is earth (hence the dig and scratch moves) and can handle certain moves better than others. It's just a theory, I explained that and that is what I said I was trying to figure out how to test (not sure I really can).

I have the monsters saved, and can raise the sense on the one further up in sense. Even with low stats, the difference, if any should show up.

The reason for using 2P mode is that allows for repeated tests against set oppponents as often as you like. Using computer control eliminates any of the superstitious elements, and allows other people to exactly duplicate experiments. Like my sharkport save.

One thing you do not mention, when you battled in these tourneys, was it the exact same official tourney with all the same opponents for each test?

And, all of these other people, are they using duplicate monsters as well in their tests? With no added charateristics picked up along the way? Battling the same opponents multiple times for reference?

I would also like to direct your attention to last year's experiment by DemonKnight regarding an advantage for player 1, in MR2's 2P mode. (MR2 Archive, Battles section, "Advantage...player 1?"} He tested the old myth that the computer in the game gave an advantage to one person all the time in 2P mode. (A great concern for everyone involved in our public online tournaments.) When he only had completed ten battles, it looked like there was a real advantage for one side. That advantage lessened as he got to 20 tests, and disappeared altogether at 100 tests.

So, I personally, do not feel that I have completed any test for myself (of something that may be random) unless I have completed a minimum of 100 runs. So my tests at other levels will take some time to report.

The other people I mention aren't "testing", but were just having trouble beating the S battles and ragnarox. After paying more attention to battle sense they said it was easier and started seeing success.

I did say I went to the same tourney, same year each time. When you reset and go to any tourney, 1 or two monsters change most every time, but over 10 or so tourneys you get to see every monster at least once (some every time) and compare your results with each. I took average performance (average damage from attack placed and received. Total dodges, blocks, hits overall for all the tourneys). Plus if you enter 10 ish tourneys you fight 40 to 50 battles....a good overall sampling.

Although you fight more than 5 monsters (I saw 9 different in each total and didn't record the exact number of times I saw each).

And lastly, like I said there is no reason to believe or disbelieve battle sense comes into play during a 2 player battle.

Seems like a lot of trouble to have the game disable something for one set of battles, but have it active in other battles. Especially since one of the stated goals in the game is to battle other players after raising your monsters and testing yourself ingame. Not to mention something which is being touted as the replacement of the Skill attribute. No other MR game has such a feature, and this particular game spent less time in development than they did.

Also note, my test monsters had not been given hearts. That is to overcome any possibility that there are more than the 8 characteristics shown on the chart. Since we know that thing like "Stone Body" and "Fast Footwork" directly affect how a monster performs in battle, in a very demonstrable way.

Another note about the use of 100. I do volunteer work at the nanotechnology lab of a non-profit. To keep our funding, we have to use standard scientific practices, and the 100 minimum is the norm.

Tell you what, let's change the focus of the discussion. I believe I've found something in the game that is beneficial. I've tested it and my results seem to fit. If you would please just try to duplicate my experiment or have someone else with time on their hands here do so and see if it's valuable or not.

I in no way intend to mislead or lie. I am not a spreader of mistruth or a vague braggert. If I'm totally wrong, than I want to know. So rather than argue who's method is right or wrong or who's got bigger shoes, just re-create my test with any monster of your choosing in the in game tourney environment and post those results. Because if the desired effect is to prove or disprove me than just duplicate my test and find the holes. I'm sure someone here would be more than happy to help, especially if I'm right and it furthers the knowledge of the game.

By the way Lisa, about a year ago my family bought MR2. It was our first experience with the games. We spent weeks struggling to get past A tourney and if it wasn't for this site and Richard's we'd still be struggling, so massive props and thanks. I'm not arguing with you, but I truly believe my tested results are correct. The MR series aren't the first games my family has spent countless hours dissecting, I'm not a total moron. Regardless of your original test I don't think it discredits mine as the environment is different...that's all. So please duplicate the environment and then we'll all know.

By the way, on the subject of Battle Sense being there on the p1/p2 screen or not. The gameshark code for p1 stats applies to in battle only. It goes back to normal in the training area. No reason to believe it's any different for battle sense. Battle Sense may or may not apply to in game situation or in battle situations. So if you start the game in .vs mode which is what you did, battle sense may not apply since you can't improve it in this scenario. You can't improve battle sense in a 1 on 1 battle (.vs mode), so I theorize it doesn't exist unless you're in the game. One more reason to prove/disprove it my way.

I will ask the developers.

Thanks

The verdict is in.

I asked, "In two-player mode, is is everything about your monster the same as while fighting monsters in the game's official tourneys?"
Reply, "Yes."

I then asked, "Does 'Sense'* only affect points advanced at Noisy Halls?"
Reply, "Yes."

So there it is. Battle Sense does not affect dodging, or attacking, and 2P Mode is as honest as ever.

* -In the Japanese game, it is simply called "Sense". Eggo renamed it for the US market to sound cooler. It was on the list of name changes I reviewed in August.