This thread shall be used for posting new observations and changes in monster combination in MFDS2.

Thus far, we've noticed two important things:


1. The number of stars in a monster's status screen has an unknown effect on the combination result.

2. Apparently, Modoki (false) monsters can be obtained by attempting to make a monster combination that doesn't exist.


I'm starting to think that the star in a monster's status screen is an indication of how well the monster's main and subtype's stat gains match up, but that doesn't explain how some pures have three stars while others have one, and still others have a moon.

I found the answer for the Star mystery. unfortunately, I can't read it yet.

If you have combined a monster, then you have access to it. (I am assuming for the messages I have seen that Lisa, GM, and myself have combined monsters at least once) (Wait, that sounds dirty...)

At any rate, combining 2 monsters will unlock the Memo list for Combining. The Combining memos are the third book in the memo section. Go to page 2 of the memo list. There in all its glory is an explanation of the Stars.

There are 4 different icons shown - 1 Star, 3 Stars, Moon, and Sun. I can see the word "Parameter" in the first line of the paragraph, which means that there is a Stat involved in this. (The 6 main stats are called parameters throughout the game.) This description is loaded with Kanji, so figuring it out will be very slow for me. (The perfect guide for MFDS had hurigana over many of the Kanji which made words easier to figure out.)

Here is a screenshot of that memo page -
https://www.thorrsoldhammers.com/MFDS2/Potential.bmp
The title line essentially says "To be stronger". The second heading row that shows the icons themselves says "Potential Up".

I am banging my head on this one because the small font Kanji are killing me. I can't figure out a few key ones.

The first sentence appears to say something like "There is more to a monster's potential than shown by their starting stats". The second section starts out saying something like "The monster can outgrow their parents..."

So maybe this rank system is merely an indicator of how much better it can be than its parents. So, perhaps combining a couple of 3Star monsters that are compatible types and have good stat alignment and good rank will result in a Moon or Sun monster due to the higher stats and higher number of techniques they are likely to start with.

"Combining memo

In order to make stronger

Increase of latent power

There is a way to raise monsters with low initial parameters so that they will be effectively strengthened.

In order to increase latent power, it is necessary to make the new monster do many things and combine it with a fellow monster rich in experience."

After my Moon level dragon dies, I went to the shrine to make another dragon from my book. It has a Sun rating. I also managed to finally get the pixie I wanted (Pixie/Durahan). She starts with a Moon rating straight from the book.

So, I am guessing by the order of the stars/moon/sun in the linked image that moon is better than 3 stars and sun is better than moon. Have you seen any indication of this?

Yeah I think it's in the order of the icons as they show on that memo screen.

I did a book level stat check -

Pixie/Piroro - 3 Stars - Total of starting stats = 601
Pixie/Durahan - Moon - Total stats = 721
Dragon/Dragon - Sun - Total Stats = 899

I think that may answer the question.

To continue, I think what the memo is really trying to say is that the rank indicates how high your starting stats normally would be, but you can overcome that limitation and increase the potential of your monster by combining for higher starting stats using higher ranked monsters.

This actually explains a few things. I took 2 rank E newborn Plants of different subbreeds that were ranked at 3 stars and combined them to make a pure plant. The result was a 1 Star Plant. If the combination formula is the same or similar to MFDS, then this would be due to all the penalties for low loyalty, low rank, and differing stat levels. My book Plant, though, is a 3 Star monster. His stats are higher than my combined plant.

This also explains my Dragon. My combined dragon came from the 1Star plant and a 3Star plant combined with the Dragon Horn. He started with a Moon rank. However, the book version has higher stats. The book version has a Sun rank.

So the celestial icon in the status screen is a potential indicator. In that case, I think it'd be appropriate to call it the Potential Rating.

About your first Dragon, Thorr; did you get it from the book or from combination? Have the Dragon's book stats remained the same the whole time? It seems a bit strange that some book monsters start off much weaker than others, and I think it'd be quite nice if they went up as they got stronger.

Your book is just like in MFDS. It's constant. The stats there are fixed and final.

As I said in the post above, my dragon was combined. He had the Moon rank. My Book dragon is better and starts with a Sun.

Ah, sorry about that.

So every breed has a different initial innate potential. Come to think of it, it does add quite a bit of variety to the normally-baseline book monsters.

By the way, are there any compatibility problems with differently-rated monsters?

I haven't seen enough to say for sure. My take on this is that the Icon tells you 2 things -

1) The total of their stats is within a certain Range when the monster was born.
2) The lower or higher your monsters starting point is, the lesser or further they can go respectively.

So, the icon shows your starting advantage or disadvantage. The book's baseline stats fall within the ranges, so making a book monster will always net you the same Potential Rank. But if you combine for a monster, that rank can be greater or lesser than the book's Rank. This is why my combined Dragon had a Moon indicator. He was a combined monster from bad parentage and his starting stats suffered.

So, taking a 1 Star monster all the way to the Big 4 is really high accomplishment whereas taking a Sun ranked monster may not be so difficult.

Once you get your new Dragon off the ground, let us know how its statgains are compared to your previous one. It seems to me that a higher potential rank also means higher statgains.

That very well could be too. You can see the stat gain pattern on monsters when you combine them. But MFDS monster all had a specific pattern according to Type (each breed/sub combo had a particular pattern). Maybe they have injected more into that this time around based on the parent's stats.

I won't be raising my book dragon until later, but my combo dragon had -great- gains (Maxed at 26 most of the time on Int, Str, and Skill during prime) and few good dice rolling sessions to get those gains quickly.

Speaking of that, my one star Green Suezo, Boofy, dislikes Pow, Ski, Def and Lif drills and gets low gains from them, whereas it doesn't mind Int drills and only likes Spd drills. Looks like I'm gonna have a hard time. But I won't dump it, as I'd like to see what sort of offspring I can get from raising a bottom-of-the-barrel book monster.

Ok, another combining effort has confirmed your theory GM. It's the Statgain patterns that determine a monster's Potential Rank.

I just combined two Book-made dragons (they each have a Sun rank) with the Henger doll. The statgain pattern shown on the screen was largely comprised of Circle ranks with a double circle in Skill and a Star in Int also a Star in the very bottom stat on the screen. The starting stats for the Henger were a combined 750 (which if using the starting stats as a guide, should be a Moon). The henger has a Sun rank. The statgain patterns definitely have a part in the Potential Rank.

Also notice in the Combine screen that you get there are two arrow indicators in the upper right part of the screen. The first one looks to be a potential rating and the second looks to be a starting parameter rating. The arrows face to the right and can be tilted upward or downward. These are definitely helpful when determining your combinations.

Of note, I believe that the arrows on the Potential and Parameter listings indicate an increase or a decrease from the parentage. So if the Potential arrow is upward, then the resulting monster will have a potential rank that is higher than its parents.

More info.

Sun isn't the highest potential rank. I combined my two class A pixies and got a pixie with Galaxy rank. (It's a spiral galaxy icon).

I now find it important that we look at the combination screen overall. Here is screenshot of it -
Combination Screen

This table is a tranlation of it-

0x0				Potential	(+-=)
Str	x	Int	x	Parameter	(+-=)
Skill	x	Speed	x
Def	x	Life	x
G Regen	X	Battle Move Spd	X
Lifespan	X	Growth pattern

It appears that the indicators on the Stats are going to be the statgain pattern for the new monster. However, I have to believe that the Potential and Parameter indicators are indicative of change from the norm.
I also believe that the Guts gen and Battle Movement speed indicators are X if they are not changing, so they must be indicators of deviance from the norm. (I say this because X is the lowest of indicators and i know that my pixie has a high G regen value to start. I can't imagine my Galaxy Class monster suddenly getting the lowest possible G Regen speed.)
The growth type is a definite value for the new monster, but I think the lifespan indicator is a deviance as well.

Also note that on the second screen (Labelled Data 1) it lists the stats of both monster side by side. It also shows the Compatibility of the two monsters with an indicator in the top center.

The growth pattern seems to follow the same as MFDS. I will post the original chart from the perfect guide so that it can be matched up directly. The label on the screen matches the label on the chart. (In the example, it's an Early peaking growth pattern.)

Nice job, Thorr! Looks like we're starting to get a clearer picture here. Let's keep going and maybe we'll get the face of God or something.

Have there been any cases of the lifespan level increasing, or do your test monsters all match up with their MFDS equivalents?

Hard to say. My dragon died at age 3-7 (Dragons usually have a shortish lifespan). My First pixie is essentially in retirement at age 3-6. My second pixie is in her 3rd life stage at 2-10. In MFDS, Pixies are supposed to have an average lifespan. Hengers are supposed to have a longer lifespan, so we'll see how that goes when I get around to it.

I have noticed 2 new icons on my monsters in the Freezer. These icons show above my monster info in the upper left of the screen in the Thawing screen.

1) a badge with a Z on it - This appears on my Henger who unlocked all the Zodiac monsters. He also did the 4 Heavenly Tournies (that unlock the Monol, naga, etc..) and the Big Bang tourney. This icon could indicate that he finished the Big Bang.

2) A Flame - This icon shows above some of my new monsters. I belive that this icon indicates that they have Limit Break and can exceed 999 in their stats.

I love all of this unlockable stuff!

I wonder why some of the four new breeds are such a big deal in BOMBA? I can understand Centaur, Gali and even Monol, but Nagas are a dime a dozen, despite their highly aggressive combat style.

Perhaps it's because these monsters are exotic to the BOMBA area.

Ack! I just tried combining my Green Suezo (currently in its twilight period) with my two month old Pixie, and instead of the amazing results I got when I attempted combination around prime (sun rating), the result was a book-level Pink Eye with one star. Is it because I let it become too old?

Yep. Too old. Fortunately, I salvaged the result by combining it with my Pixie very shortly after her prime. The result was a moon-level Pink Eye, because I waited too long (previous test combos yielded a sun-level Pink Eye).

I'm starting to think that the signs we see next to the stats when combining aren't referring to the statgains. According to the combination screen, my monster would have a star each in Int, Spd and Ski, a circle each for Def and Lif, and an X for Pow. But when I took the newborn to the ranch for drilling, it disliked Lif, Def and Pow training, was okay with Ski and Int, and liked Spd. It may be that the signs refer to how high the starting stats will be as opposed to the actual gains, as the aformentioned star stats were 215, 182 and 185 respectively, Def and Lif were 116 and 134, and Pow was 87, slightly higher than book level. Additionally, I've noticed that the question mark that appears avobe the result prediction arrow every now and again is apparently a warning that your combo result will be weaker if you continue to raise the monster(s) beyond prime, and when you've just barely passed the high-end edge due to combo tardiness. I don't have any solid evidence of this yet, but hopefully the strategy guide will shed some light on it when it arrives.

Then again, it may very well be that I just botched it by getting greedy with my breeding fodder. I'll give it another go with a new monster and the Pink Eye later.

I would think that the Suezo is not the problem. Remember the old formula has penalties for low class. Perhaps your Pixie went up a class or 2 in here prime?

I agree with your assessment of the Stats symbols. It makes sense.

Green Suezo was Rank B, and Pixie was Rank A.

Are you suggesting that age has nothing to do with the combination result?

My strategy guide is in the city, but I missed UPS' phone call. I should have it by tomorrow.

In the meantime, I think it's time we got to the bottom of this potential rating business. I'm going regenerate another Pink Eye with a lower potential rating from the book and compare its gains to the combined one. I'll start off by training them for two months each in every light drill with the following schedule:

LD/LD/RST/LD

LD/RST/LD/LD

I will follow this schedule twice for each drill for good measure.

Hey, at least this gives me something to do by the time that book gets here.

Age is not part of the combination formula in MRDS1, so I personally doubt it's part of the current one. I'll make my analysis based on the MFDS1 formula...

The key point in your description above is "two-month old pixie". Combining a maxed out monster with a near newborn monster will give you an average or worse progeny. The biggest reason would be the Loyalty penalty. If either of the monsters has a loyalty in the lowest quarter, there is a 100% penalty to ALL stats (if the pixie got up to the next loyalty level then it would be 70%. Being a Rank E pixie, there is no bonus there. The Weight factor is also probably not there.

So, Let's say your Suezo has 800 Int and the pixie has around 200.

We'll call the book value for the new Suezo's INT = 180 (not that it actually will matter)

So, INT = 180 (book) + (800 + 200 / 2 [avg of the 2 monsters]) - 100 % of the result)

Basically it boils down to The loyalty penalty will make it 180 + 0 (or possibly lower). That means it is essentially a book monster and waste fo a combination.

Now, This formula will likely not hold completely true because of changes and tweaks for MFDS2. Age could now be part of it, but it wasn't before. (Age was part of the formula in MFA because monsters never died. I theorize that Age was removed as a factor because death was re-added.)

Here's the thing. Previously, I attempted to combine my Green Suezo with my two month old Pixie during its prime. The result was a sun level monster with higher stats than a book monster. When I reset and tried it again sometime after the retirement warning, the result was a monster with similar stats and a one star rating. The potential arrow was pointing sideways, indicating no change in potential.

After raising the Pixie for a while, I tried combining it with the old Suezo during its prime, and the result was a sun level monster with starting stats well over 800 in total. Also, the potential arrow was pointed upwards when I combined them (unfortunately, I can't recall exactly whether or not there was a question mark above it, as every now and again I would simply check the combo predictions a few times without combining, but during one of these checks there was a question mark over an upwardly-pointed potential arrow). When I reset and tried it again after Pixie left prime, I got the moon level Pink Eye with the stats listed above. The potential arrow was pointed slightly upwards, indicating a single potential level increase, with a question mark above it. Additionally, both monsters had max loyalty.

It's quite possible that one of the big potential boosts was listed when they were both the same rank. I can't verify that at present.

By the way, what life stages were those Pixies in when you combined them to get the galaxy level monster?

Both were very mature. (They both had about 3 months left to live)

MFDS1 gave a fairly nice bonus when your monsters were identical rank. The higher that identical rank, the higher the bonus.
MFDS1 also gave large bonuses to stats when your monsters have the same stat distribution.

It seems to me that you should have your perfect guide already, which would have the combination formula in it. That will answer your question for sure.

Yep, got it. Flipping through it now. I'll see if I can find it.

The first thing I noticed was a bit of a shock. It turns out that galaxy level isn't even the highest potential rating. In fact, there are two more above it. One is a pair of galaxies overlapping in an X shape that somewhat resembles an atom, and the other is a massive swirl of which only a part of it can be seen in the icon. I think it would make sense to refer to these ratings as "Twin Galaxy" and "Universe", respectively.

I think I found the equation. I'll scan the pages and upload them so you can see if it's any different from the newer one.

There's also a monster compatibility chart in this book, apparently corresponding with the compatibility indicator in the parent comparison tab when combining monsters. It's a pretty big chart, but I'll try and get it all up here.

I'll have the book myself in the next few days. Unless it's really pressing, it can probably wait until then. ;-) But if you want to send me scans, you have my email address. :-)

Well, how about that? Conveniently, the guide has a section on how to max out a monster. I'll send you that one, too.

I checked the monster list, and all of the monsters have specific statistical likes and dislikes. So even if you get a universe level Green Suezo, it will always dislike Pow, Ski, Def and Lif training. As for how high the gains can get depending on the potential rating, I'm gonna find out.

That's enough guide thumping for now. Time to test the one-eyed monsters.

I've done the tests for the Spd, Int and Ski light drills. I ended up making three attempts each after getting significantly different results on two attempts late in the testing. Here are the results:


Minda (Moon):

Spd

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

6/6/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6/RST/5/5

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

8(Great)/Failure/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6/RST/6/7

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

7(Great)/5/RST/7(Great)

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

Failure/RST/6/6

NOTE: GOT WARNINGS BEFORE FIFTH AND SIXTH DRILLS ON FIRST TWO ATTEMPTS, BEFORE FIFTH DRILL ON THIRD. POSSIBLY DUE TO DRILL REPETITION STRESS


Int

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

6/6/RST/7

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6/RST/6/6

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

7/7(Great)/RST/6

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

7/RST/6/6(Cheat)

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

6(Cheat)/8(Great)/RST/6

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6/RST/6/Failure

NOTE: GOT WARNING BEFORE FIFTH DRILL ON ALL ATTEMPTS


Ski

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

6/5/RST/Failure

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6(Great)/RST/5/Failure

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

6/6/RST/Failure

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

Failure/RST/5(Cheat)/7

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

5/6/RST/6

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

Failure/RST/5/6

NOTE: GOT WARNINGS BEFORE FIFTH AND SIXTH DRILLS ON SECOND AND THIRD ATTEMPTS ONLY


Zelda (Book, Three Stars):

Spd

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

Failure/8/RST/7

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

8/RST/Failure/8

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

7/Failure/RST/7(Cheat)

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

8/RST/7/8

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

7/Failure/RST/7

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

7/RST/8/7

NOTE: NO WARNINGS


Int

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

Failure/Failure/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

Failure/RST/5/5

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

5/5/RST/6

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

5/RST/5/6

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

Failure/6/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

6/RST/Failure/5

NOTE: NO WARNINGS


Ski

Attempt 1:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

Failure/Failure/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

5/RST/5/Failure

Attempt 2:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

5/5/RST/6

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

5/RST/6/6

Attempt 3:

Month 1: LD/LD/RST/LD

Failure/6(Great)/RST/5

Month 2: LD/RST/LD/LD

Failure/RST/5/6

NOTES: NO WARNINGS; LEARNED NEW ATTACK WHEN SCOLDED DUE TO FIRST FAILURE (TAIL WHIP)


At the start of testing, Minda was 1 month old, while Zelda was a newborn. Both monsters were fed milk every month. Neither of them were given items.

As you can see, the difference isn't all that significant at this stage. Minda appears to have very slightly better Int results, while Zelda does better in Spd, but the differences are fairly minute regardless. Moreover, Minda had more stress than Zelda to start, so that most likely mixed things up a bit. At this point, it's not worth testing the other stats. If I want to get any useful numbers, I'm going to have to perform these tests again once they both reach prime.

But, are they both the same exact breed. Sub-breed changes the statgain pattern.

I am curious, is Minda supposed to be Midna from LoZ: TP?

Yes, they're both Pink Eyes.

Regarding the name, when I named my old MFDS monster Minda, I had intended to call it Midna, but accidentally swapped the D and N around. It stuck, especially after I maxed it, so I decided to name all of my Pink Eyes from thereon Minda, my excuse being that it's a corruption of the Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess character's name.

I wasn't being critical ;) I just wanted to be sure the two names were related.

I find that story interesting given this excerpt from the story of Zelda II -

"In his grief, the prince placed the princess in this room. He hoped that someday she would come back to life. So that this tragedy would never be forgotten, he ordered that every female child born into the royal household be given the name Zelda."

Looks like you have duplicated the same idea. =P

I did not think you were being critical, sir. What gave you that indication?

Coincidentally, Zelda's in the freezer.

Just for fun, I checked the combo results for the two monsters and found they had star compatibility. I reason that, if both the main and subtypes have high compatibility as indicated by the complete guide's breed compatibility chart, the overall monster compatibility will be exceptionally high.

Hmm, I am not sure why I thought that.. Chalk it up to being very, very tired. I got about 8 hours of sleep -this week-.

I have a better idea. Since my connection makes sending large images a bit difficult, I decided to upload them myself instead.

Here are the pages pertaining to combination:

Page 1

Page 2

Also, here's the compatibility chart and the page explaining the potential ratings.

Unfortunately, photobucket shrinks fairly large images down. But they're pretty clear, at least.

I am looking at the Page 2 post...

On the righthand page, there are several charts.

The top chart is the Potential Rank. We've discussed that.

Below that, on the left, is the Loyalty chart. It appears that what I thought was the lowset loyalty ranking is actually the middle. It starts neutral and can to the right for Trust and to the left for Hate.

The chart next to that is Sensitivity. Looks like you want to be in the middle there.

Below those two are Leniency (which only shows The big Circle and X. It's not clear enough for me to make out what they are really saying)
Next to Leniency should be Body Weight. You want to try and stay in the middle there as well.

The bottom chart is Popularity. Looks there are 5 levels, so I haven't seen all of them in-game yet. The list goes like this -
Nobody, Recognizable, Idol, Star, Hero

The first scan is the complete combination formula, for sure. I can see how it breaks down and it is very similar to the MFDS formula. It isn't clear enough for me to work on it yet, but I will make it my first priority when I get the book in hand.

Did they mention statgains in the potential rating description, or just stats?

I still have that larger scan of the combination formula on my computer. I'll go for broke and try to send it to you.

Success! Sent.

I did receive it last night. There are a couple of references that need to be investigated, but I am going to look into what is available