Based on a tip I got from a Japanese website, I may (I repeat, MAY) have found the factor that has always combining research such a pain in the ****.

There appear to be three primary factors in determining what is, and what isn't a great combo.

1. The stat rankings of the parents, from highest to lowest.

2. The ranking of the baseline stats of the parents from highest to lowest.

3. The stat GAIN values of the parents.

For an example,let use a great combo that mepersoner and I were working on a few nights ago. A Kitten (Pixie/Kato) and a Mint (Pixie/Tiger)

Baseline stats for Kitten:

LIF 50

POW 80

INT 170

SKI 150

SPD 140

DEF 60

Baseline stats for Mint:

LIF 50

POW 80

INT 170

SKI 150

SPD 140

DEF 60

Stat gains for Kitten:

LIF 1

POW 2

INT 5

SKI 4

SPD 4

DEF 1

Stat gains for Mint:

LIF 1

POW 2

INT 5

SKI 4

SPD 4

DEF 1

Of course, as many folks already know, the rankings of the stats are a big factor in determining the outcome. The more matches in the stat rankings, the better the outcome. Let's use the rankings baseline stat for the Kitten and Mint as an example

Rank	Kitten	Mint
1st	INT	INT
2nd	SKI	SKI
3rd	SPD	SPD
4th	POW	POW
5th	DEF	DEF
6th	LIF	LIF

Obviously, they all matched up perfectly. A great combo resulted, but such is not the case for all breeds. Why is that? Well, in this case, not only the order of the stats were identical, but also the stat GAINS as well. How do THEY fit into the picture?

Well, there is a little factor I tentatively call "correcting" involving the stat gains of the monsters. Basically the theory is when determining the stat orders for combining purposes, the game assigns a mulitplier to the stat based on its stat gain value. The multipliers go something like this.

Stat gain 1 : x 0
Stat gain 2 : x .5
Stat gain 3 : x 1
Stat gain 4 : x 1.5
Stat gain 5 : x 2

Let's take those stats for the Mint and Kitten and use these factors. Note that the corrected numbers CANNOT go higher than 999.

Mint

Stat	Before	Stat gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	50	1	x 0	0
POW	80	2	x .5	40
INT	170	5	x 2	340
SKI	150	4	x 1.5	225
SPD	140	4	x 1.5	210
DEF	60	1	x 0	0

Kitten

Stat	Before	Stat gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	50	1	x 0	0
POW	80	2	x .5	40
INT	170	5	x 2	340
SKI	150	4	x 1.5	225
SPD	140	4	x 1.5	210
DEF	60	1	x 0	0

So we get these stats after correcting.

Stat	Kitten	Mint
LIF	0	0
POW	40	40
INT	340	340
SKI	225	225
SPD	210	210
DEF	0	0

Now we can determine the corrected stat order except for the fact that LIF and DEF are tied! What to do? This is where the baseline stats come in. In the Kitten, the baseline DEF is higher than the baseline LIF. The same case applies with the Mint. In short, use the rankings of the baseline stats to resolve ties. We now have the following rankings.

Rank	Kitten	Mint
1st	INT	INT
2nd	SKI	SKI
3rd	SPD	SPD
4th	POW	POW
5th	DEF	DEF
6th	LIF	LIF

So even after correcting, the rankings still match. It is a great combo. A more dramatic illustration is this, and it shatters a long held assumption.

Kitten

LIF 999

POW 80

INT 170

SKI 150

SPD 140

DEF 999

Mint

LIF 999

POW 80

INT 170

SKI 150

SPD 140

DEF 999

Dadge said that this was a Great combo. Huh!?!
Conventional wisdom taught that the stats should be a proportion to stat gains in order to make a great combo. This combo obviously flies in the face of that assumption. Again, through correcting, this can be explained. Lets run the numbers through again.

Mint

Stat	Before	Stat gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	999	1	x 0	0(50)
POW	80	2	x .5	40
INT	170	5	x 2	340
SKI	150	4	x 1.5	225
SPD	140	4	x 1.5	210
DEF	999	1	x 0	0(60)

Kitten

Stat	Before	Stat gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	999	1	x 0	0(50)
POW	80	2	x .5	40
INT	170	5	x 2	340
SKI	150	4	x 1.5	225
SPD	140	4	x 1.5	210
DEF	999	1	x 0	0(60)

Again, we determine the stat orders using the corrected values, remembering to refer to the baseline values to resolve ties.

Rank	Kitten	Mint
1st	INT	INT
2nd	SKI	SKI
3rd	SPD	SPD
4th	POW	POW
5th	DEF	DEF
6th	LIF	LIF

Again, they match, and the Great combo holds.

NOTE: This is by no means final and needs to be tested under a variety of situations. However, so far it is holding up and appears to explains many of the quirks involved in the process. Please send me some great combos so I can test this out. Post them in this thread, Thank you.

Ok, this time I did an experiment with 2 monsters with very different baseline scores and stat gains.

Namely, a Pixie, and a Zuum.

Okay...here goes.

Baseline Pixie stats:

LIF 50

POW 80

INT 170

SKI 150

SPD 140

DEF 60

Baseline Zuum stats:

LIF 130

POW 120

INT 80

SKI 140

SPD 100

DEF 110

Pixie Stat Gains:

LIF 1

POW 2

INT 5

SKI 4

SPD 4

DEF 1

Zuum Stat Gains:

LIF 3

POW 3

INT 2

SKI 4

SPD 3

DEF 3

Pixie Current Stats:

LIF 999

POW 999

INT 999

SKI 999

SPD 999

DEF 999

Zuum Current Stats:

LIF 270

POW 290

INT 999

SKI 250

SPD 300

DEF 280

PIXIE

Stat	Before	Stat Gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	999	1	0	0(50)
POW	999	2	.5	499
INT	999	5	2	999(170)
SKI	999	4	1.5	999(150)
SPD	999	4	1.5	999(140)
DEF	999	1	0	0(60)

Pixie's corrected stat order: INT/SKI/SPD/POW/DEF/LIF

ZUUM

Stats	Before	Stat Gain	Multiplier	After
LIF	270	3	1	270
POW	290	3	1	290
INT	999	2	.5	499
SKI	250	4	1.5	375
SPD	300	3	1	300
DEF	280	3	1	280

Zuum's Corrected Stat Order:
INT/SKI/SPD/POW/DEF/LIF

As you can see, the corrected stat orders match perfectly. Now for the Moment of Truth.

Combine....

Dadge says.................

"This combination is great. It cannot go wrong unless something weird happens."

GREAT COMBO

YES!!!!

I do believe that this could really be it folks!!

Here's a "Great" Combo I stumbled on between a pure breed Joker, and a Jill/Tiger

Joker : Jill/Tiger
L.471 : L.222
P.145 : P.177
I.999 : I.549
Sk.881 : Sk.388
Sp.502 : Sp.179
D.180 : D.224

Test it D.P., If it works w/ your therory then you probaly cracked the code to getting great combos

Interesting. Gonna have to investigate this.

umm..what do you think Dp is doing?!

Here's the analysis of your combo, Infinite Joker.

JOKER

Stat	Before	StatGain	Multiplier	After
LIF	471	3	1	471
POW	175	3	1	175
INT	999	5	2	999(200)
SKI	881	5	2	999(190)
SPD	502	2	.5	251
DEF	180	2	.5	90

PIERRY (Jill/Tiger)

Stat	Before	StatGain	Multiplier	After
LIF	222	3	1	222
POW	177	3	1	177
INT	549	4	1.5	823
SKI	388	3	1	388
SPD	179	3	1	179
DEF	224	2	.5	112

Corrected Stat orders:

Rank	Joker	Pierry
1st	INT	INT
2nd	SKI	SKI
3rd	LIF	LIF
4th	SPD	SPD
5th	POW	POW
6th	DEF	DEF

Perfect Match. Holding up so far :)

I think you figured it out DP, Once again you figured out one of the many MR secrets

if i still had the save i would give you the combo of my fully trained kasumi and untrained tuger/golem which was great. unfortunately it was deleted though. But if i get any more great combos let me know if you want info on them. I would be happy to help in any way

Another test run. This time the subjects are: A Gaia (Henger/Golem) and an Omega (Henger/Zuum).

GAIA

Stat	Before	StatGain	Multiplier	After
LIF	860	2	.5	430
POW	999	4	1.5	999
INT	800	3	1	800
SKI	780	3	1	780
SPD	760	3	1	760
DEF	840	2	.5	420

OMEGA

Stat	Before	StatGain	Multiplier	After
LIF	900	2	.5	450
POW	999	4	1.5	999
INT	800	3	1	800
SKI	450	4	1.5	675
SPD	400	4	1.5	600
DEF	880	2	.5	440

Corrected Stat Rankings:

Rank	Gaia	Omega
1st	POW	POW
2nd	INT	INT
3rd	SKI	SKI
4th	SPD	SPD
5th	LIF	LIF
6th	DEF	DEF

The corrected stat rankings match for each monster. Time to combine.

Once again, Dadge tells me that I have a Great Combo!

Having seen this thread, and just finished training Brat, my Mustardy, I decided to give your theory a whirl. I've never found a great combo before, so what better time to really try?

I decided to speed things up a bit, and rather than training a monster to combine him with, I used a GameShark to set the monster's stats according to your theory. I decided to go with a purebreed Worm, because their stat gains are quite different...and I just find the little suckers cute.

Anyway, the test subjects:

(Don't laugh at my Mustardy, I was trying an itemless moneymaker monster training method on him...he's pretty pathetic, I know)

Mustardy			Worm
Lif	484	3	Lif	200	5
Pow	428	3	Pow	350	3
Int	340	3	Int	200	3
Ski	453	4	Ski	450	3
Spd	280	3	Spd	120	1
Def	336	3	Def	300	2

After correction:

*	Mustardy	Worm
Lif	484	400
Pow	428	350
Int	340	200
Ski	679	900
Spd	280	0
Def	336	150

Skill alignment:

Mustardy	Worm
Ski	Ski
Lif	Lif
Pow	Pow
Int	Int
Def	Def
Spd	Spd

Looks good so far.....hold your breath...

Dadge says:
"This prospect is great. It can't go wrong unless something weird happens."

Booyah! It works! (Even though the resulting monster wasn't all that hot....but the parent's stats were low, so it's to be expected)

I think you hit it, DP. Very fine work :)

Tell me would this work DP, I did calculations and I think it would but I am unsure. A prince hare and a bow wow. The prince hare stats are just estimated on what they should look like to get an eared mew. I already have a bow wow with these stats. I need to know if this could create a great combo.

Prince Hare
Lif. 350 x1= 350
Pow. 150 x2= 300
int. 310 x1= 310
ski. 400 x1= 400
spd. 450 x1.5= 675
def. 100 x.5= 050

stat ratings-lif-3/pow-5/int-3/ski-3/spd-4/def-2
Order- Spd., Ski, Lif, Int, Pow, Def. ( after the multipliers)
Than I move onto my bow wow

bow wow
lif. 559 x1=559
pow. 808 x.5=404
int. 451 x1=451
ski. 934 x1.5=999
spd. 999 x1.5=999
def. 535 x.5=267.5

stat ratings-lif-3/pow-2/int-3/ski-4/spd-4/def-2
Order- Spd, ski, lif, int, pow, def ( after multipliers)

So from what it looks like this would create a great combo right?

Don't round the Prince Hare's stats while calculating.... also you need you need to know the baseline stats of the monster you're trying to get... which people can post in the misc. Q&A if they want to be of help... I'll do some more of those pretty soon, I'm busy this weekend, but school starts in a couple weeks and then I'll be good to go...

Hey it worked. Except I boosted the hare's spd to 850, and ski to 700 I'll post the exact stats later

I'm still a little confused about the stat gain aspect. I'd been suspecting something was up when, while randomingly combining to see what the recommendations where, I found out that my undine and my reaper were a GOOD combo. WTF? Then I realized my undine's final STR of 100 was actually TEN TIMES what it had started at. The resulting siren has serious potential.

So, how do we use this to actually get combos to work out? I've been experimenting, but haven't managed to affect the outcome yet. Am I just miscalculating??? Are base stats the same as beginning stats? Is stat gain the same as # of levels in the stat, or is it based on a percentage increase in the stat?

I'll have to see details of your combo, anmely the stats and breeds of the parents, to find out.

Base stats are stats that every baby monster starts with before modifications from combining or the CD reading process. The monster from a CD will have stats close to the baseline, while monsters from the market ALWAYS have baseline stats.

Stat gains refer to a series of values (which are internal, one can't detect them directly without a hacking device) that dictate how well certain stats on a monster increase via Drill or Errantry.

I still do not have full data sets regarding baseline stats and stat gain values, but I'm working on it. Give me the EXACT stats of your Reaper and your Undine and then I can try to figure out what is happening.

I wasn't keeping detailed records yet. However, this weekend I started some experimenting, stat tweaking and keeping records, and I got some results.

I started with a Daton and a Jelly Hound, fresh from the Shrine.
Daton: SKI SPD INT POW LIF DEF
Jelly: SKI INT SPD POW LIF DEF
Dadge said "Fine".

I trained the Daton awhile, went back to the lab.
Daton: SKI SPD INT LIF POW DEF
Jelly: SKI INT SPD POW LIF DEF
Dadge said "Unsure".

I trained the Daton a few more weeks.
Daton: SKI INT SPD POW LIF DEF
Jelly: SKI INT SPD POW LIF DEF
Dadge said "GREAT"!!!!!

So, it's possible to move it from "Fine" to "Unsure" to "GREAT".

There's a few things that I haven't been able to figure out.

First:
Devil Mayhem: Joker 3.7 years
lif417 pow293 int764 ski609 spd280 def289
combined with:
Jack E. Scale: Flare Death 3months
lif271 pow246 int340 ski317 spd153 def184
so they both are INT-SKI-LIF-POW-DEF-SPD.
Dadge said "Good". Why not great?

Also:
Mock Goddess: Wood Saurian 1.5years
lif318 pow332 int164 ski297 spd212 def211
combined with:
Riotaint: Bajarl 10 months
lif112 pow174 int99 ski160 spd120 def85
Dadge said "Good". But when you line the stats up:
POW--POW
LIF SKI
SKI SPD
SPD LIF
DEF INT
INT DEF
The only stat in the same position is "POW". So, what effect do stats in crossed positions have, like with the ski, lif, def and int in this example???

Or another one:
Vanity Orion (both fresh from the Shrine)
INT176 SKI165
SKI174 INT161
SPD113 POW127
POW 94 SPD102
DEF 73 DEF 94
LIF 58 LIF 89
Dadge said "Good", even though the only stats lining up are the last two- all the rest are crossed pairs. Later, when both monsters were trained up:
Vanity Orion
INT423 INT343
SKI314 SKI308
SPD256 SPD157
LIF159 POW155
POW142 LIF132
DEF 85 DEF105
So, all their stats line up except for one crossed-pair. Dadge says "Unsure". What did I do wrong? How do I make it right so I can get an angel who can kick some derriere? Does Dadge smoke crack? If so, will he improve his opinion if I bring him some of that rock candy to use for combining? What is the difference between a "good" and a "great" combo?

The order of the stats matter too. But you also must calculate stat multipliers into the combination.

Thanks for the samples. Hopefully, with these, I can explain what happened.

It DOES sound like you're not applying the stat gain multipliers before lining up the stats. That is the critical factor and the whole point of this post.

It'll take me awhile, but I should be able soon to tell you what went on with those combos

ok, so, if I understand this correctly, then I should be able to combine two monsters from the same CD that are exactly the same and get a great combo, right? So why, then, does a combo between two pure Durahans from the same CD result in only an "up to you"? Does it have something to do with training, or am I missing something?

Two of the same monster always give an "up to you" regardless of how good the combo is... if you fully trained both of them, then you'd notice the stats come out high from the combo, even though Dadge says otherwise.

so you're saying that you have to have a different sub-breed for this to work, but two highly trained monsters of the same type will yield similar results? Okay, I can deal with that.

Another thing that just occured to me...in DP's second example, the Pixie's each have max LIF and DEF, but because they are multiplied by 0, they come out to 50 and 60, respectively, right? Could someone please explain this to me?

Well basically since when multiplied by 0 they come to 0 they're equal and since those are the two lowest stats a 0 in each is ok.

But when they come out as a 0, what determines their actual stats for those ones? They can't just be 0.

Ok starting stats you don't apply the modifiers. You only apply the modifiers on the monsters being combined, so the stats will match up. Yes they are zero. A pixie with maxed stats (pure) would be 0 500 999 999 999 0. So when combining with a monster that monster's lowest stats with modifiers should be life and defense, the highests skill speed and defense. The starting stats should also match up with the order of the two monsters' stat's after applying modifiers.

Just happened to notice this. The numbers come out to '50' and 60' because the monster;'s base stats are 50 and 60 in those spots. When you multiply by 0, the number ends up as 0. However, when it comes to combining, you aren't allowed to have ties. If a tie appears, you have to defer to the monster's base stats. In this case, the base stats are 50 and 60. The 60 being higher than the 50, that makes the defense effectively higher.

Hope that made sense. It's a little confusing. Even to me, and I understand it.

perhaps the outcomes of the monster depends on the age? im investigating that.